State authorities raid Jeff's followers Texas compound
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/04/texas.ranch/index.html
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Some may think this is government interfering with religion, but when children are so scrambled up they don't know who their parents are or if they are going to be parents in 9 months, it's time to act.
Some eerie parallels with the Branch Davidian fiasco in Waco, back in the 1990s. Ol' David Koresh was sure helping himself to child brides. Coincidentally, I watched a PBS documentary on Jonestown and the People's Temple a few days ago. These disasters have to be on the minds of the Texas authorities,
| QUOTE (Lara Avara @ Apr 4 2008, 11:46 AM) |
| Some eerie parallels with the Branch Davidian fiasco in Waco, back in the 1990s. Ol' David Koresh was sure helping himself to child brides. Coincidentally, I watched a PBS documentary on Jonestown and the People's Temple a few days ago. These disasters have to be on the minds of the Texas authorities, |
The Arizona Republic this morning said they have removed 18 girls from the compound and are interviewing about 60. A problem is finding foster homes for them. Yea boy, that would be fun, taking in a kid who has been indoctrinated her whole life that you are of Satan.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 5 2008, 06:48 AM) |
| The Arizona Republic this morning said they have removed 18 girls from the compound and are interviewing about 60. A problem is finding foster homes for them. Yea boy, that would be fun, taking in a kid who has been indoctrinated her whole life that you are of Satan. |
These groups are as alike as peas on a pod. They all center on one egocentric charismatic leader. They all have the same characteristics, which always includes sexual liberties for the leader. The one thing about the FLDS is it's been around long enough that it's unlikely they'd go the Kool Aid route.
| QUOTE |
| These groups are as alike as peas on a pod. They all center on one egocentric charismatic leader. They all have the same characteristics, which always includes sexual liberties for the leader. The one thing about the FLDS is it's been around long enough that it's unlikely they'd go the Kool Aid route. |
I doubt they will go the cool-aid route.
I heard a rumor that there are CPS agents in Colorado City, too and they have been there for a week.
I don't remember much of the Waco disaster, but, as someone else has already said this reminds me more of the 1953 raid than anything else.
This is not going to be fun for anyone. But if there was a call for help, the authorities had to answer it. I think there will be some arrests going on, but I also think there will be some children returned as well.
| QUOTE (bbgae @ Apr 5 2008, 02:35 PM) |
| I doubt they will go the cool-aid route. I heard a rumor that there are CPS agents in Colorado City, too and they have been there for a week. I don't remember much of the Waco disaster, but, as someone else has already said this reminds me more of the 1953 raid than anything else. This is not going to be fun for anyone. But if there was a call for help, the authorities had to answer it. I think there will be some arrests going on, but I also think there will be some children returned as well. |
Don't be too assured bbgae, the "saints" have done a number of things that I would never have believed they would do 35 years ago.
| QUOTE (uncaduff @ Apr 5 2008, 02:58 PM) |
| Don't be too assured bbgae, the "saints" have done a number of things that I would never have believed they would do 35 years ago. |
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 5 2008, 05:54 PM) |
| http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3012912 |
from what I hear, the entry into the temple wasn't all that peaceful, the swat boys had to bust down the door.
comparing the number of people, this is just about as big a deal as the 1953 raid on Shortcreek. before its over, it may be bigger.
another bit of gossip. it's alleged that some of the older people who were taken out of the compound were glad to be "rescued".
QUOTE (uncaduff @ Apr 6 2008, 04:51 PM)
from what I hear, the entry into the temple wasn't all that peaceful, the swat boys had to bust down the door.
comparing the number of people, this is just about as big a deal as the 1953 raid on Shortcreek. before its over, it may be bigger.
another bit of gossip. it's alleged that some of the older people who were taken out of the compound were glad to be "rescued".
Hey Duff,
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3022473#
Yeah I heard on KSL that some adults were part of those that left , didn't make any sense then , I guess it never crossed my mind that some would choose to go .
Quite the deal , kinda makes you wonder if Texas will handle this differently than back in 53 , you wait , there will be a lot of bleeding heart kind of people who will feel taken these folks out was worse than leaving them there if in fact time proves abuses were taking place and these girls were at risk .
I wonder if Texas can take the heat if it plays out this way . Let me ask you something , is (was) it true they actually impregnated some of these little girls with a cooking baster to avoid being charged with child rape ? I heard what Street had to say lately and I gotta to tel you , up until then I thought it was a joke . My hell, if its true , lock them all up , anyone who knew or did . Its got to stop somewhere .
comparing the number of people, this is just about as big a deal as the 1953 raid on Shortcreek. before its over, it may be bigger.
another bit of gossip. it's alleged that some of the older people who were taken out of the compound were glad to be "rescued".
| QUOTE |
| it's alleged that some of the older people who were taken out of the compound were glad to be "rescued". |
Hey Duff,
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3022473#
Yeah I heard on KSL that some adults were part of those that left , didn't make any sense then , I guess it never crossed my mind that some would choose to go .
Quite the deal , kinda makes you wonder if Texas will handle this differently than back in 53 , you wait , there will be a lot of bleeding heart kind of people who will feel taken these folks out was worse than leaving them there if in fact time proves abuses were taking place and these girls were at risk .
I wonder if Texas can take the heat if it plays out this way . Let me ask you something , is (was) it true they actually impregnated some of these little girls with a cooking baster to avoid being charged with child rape ? I heard what Street had to say lately and I gotta to tel you , up until then I thought it was a joke . My hell, if its true , lock them all up , anyone who knew or did . Its got to stop somewhere .
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 6 2008, 06:42 PM) |
| Hey Duff, . Let me ask you something , is (was) it true they actually impregnated some of these little girls with a cooking baster to avoid being charged with child rape ? I heard what Street had to say lately and I gotta to tel you , up until then I thought it was a joke . My hell, if its true , lock them all up , anyone who knew or did . Its got to stop somewhere . |
what I heard bout the turkey baster was, when the fuzz had willie the wizard, AKA William Black, on the hot seat, the pregnant young "wife", and maybe the other "wives with kids, told the investagators the story about the turkey baster an said he didn't really do them , they did it themselves. I have a hard time believing they actually said "turkey baster" but thats what the story was by the time I heard it.
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 6 2008, 06:42 PM) |
| Its got to stop somewhere . |
It isn't going to stop as long as there are people who believe Joseph Smith was the one true Prophet of God. People who believe that will want to follow his teachings, especially when they say to do what you'd really like to do anyway.
| QUOTE (uncaduff @ Apr 6 2008, 04:51 PM) |
| from what I hear, the entry into the temple wasn't all that peaceful, the swat boys had to bust down the door. comparing the number of people, this is just about as big a deal as the 1953 raid on Shortcreek. before its over, it may be bigger. another bit of gossip. it's alleged that some of the older people who were taken out of the compound were glad to be "rescued". |
I think you may be reading too much between the lines, unk
What I read, (between the lines) was that they had the fire engine there becuase the crew had the "jaws of life" to open the door. It didn't say they had to use it. I think it was just someone explaining to the media why they had the fire crew there-- just in case. And the ambulance too.. same thing, Just in case things went Waco.
And the women who left today went "voluntarily" to be with their children. That doesn't say to me they were glad to be "rescued" from the evil empire.
But... that's just my un-extrapolation of what's being extrapolated here, if ya know what I mean. But maybe you got more inside info?
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 6 2008, 07:37 PM) |
| It isn't going to stop as long as there are people who believe Joseph Smith was the one true Prophet of God. People who believe that will want to follow his teachings, especially when they say to do what you'd really like to do anyway. |
Well I dont know about that Cactus , Main stream Mormons have did a pretty good job stopping polygamy . Just like you cant make anything idiot prove, well your always going to have idiots fall for this polygamy stuff. LOL (Funny ---Joke )
And as far as any real deal Mormon impregnating children with a turkey baster? I really doubt that has happened . Cactus , um , their is a difference of attitude between the FLDS and the LDS wouldn't you say ? With polygamy LDS will excommunicate ya , the FLDS , they will exalt ya . You'd have to be a idiot not to know the difference between these attitudes , yup , sure would .
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 6 2008, 08:26 PM) |
| I think you may be reading too much between the lines, unk What I read, (between the lines) was that they had the fire engine there becuase the crew had the "jaws of life" to open the door. It didn't say they had to use it. I think it was just someone explaining to the media why they had the fire crew there-- just in case. And the ambulance too.. same thing, Just in case things went Waco. And the women who left today went "voluntarily" to be with their children. That doesn't say to me they were glad to be "rescued" from the evil empire. But... that's just my un-extrapolation of what's being extrapolated here, if ya know what I mean. But maybe you got more inside info? |
ya say, maybe so. only thing, guy told me, heard it from somebody what wuz down there. still might be streatched a bit. ya never know , the fat lady's still got a helluva lotta singin ta do yet on this one. if ya can believe anything the media is sayin, this is a bigger deal than Shortcreek 53, anyway goin by the number uv people whats bein yanked out.
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 7 2008, 07:34 AM) |
| Well I dont know about that Cactus , Main stream Mormons have did a pretty good job stopping polygamy . Just like you cant make anything idiot prove, well your always going to have idiots fall for this polygamy stuff. LOL (Funny ---Joke ) And as far as any real deal Mormon impregnating children with a turkey baster? I really doubt that has happened . Cactus , um , their is a difference of attitude between the FLDS and the LDS wouldn't you say ? With polygamy LDS will excommunicate ya , the FLDS , they will exalt ya . You'd have to be a idiot not to know the difference between these attitudes , yup , sure would . |
There is a small trickle of mainstream Mormons who move onto polygamy, whether they just quietly do it in the midst of a big city or move in with one of the established groups or start their own. There are a few gadflys who will read what the one and only true prophet actually said instead of listening to the old geezers up in the Mo-Kremlin.
At any rate, mainstream Mormons still practice polygamy. It's just in a muted form. It's never been repudiated, just put on the back burner on account of the inconvenience caused by police battering down the temple doors. But look at current teachings and practices. Mormons still believe they will practice polygamy in the after life, at least that is what I was taught as a kid. If a woman dies her husband can take another woman to the temple and be sealed to her for time and eternity, even if he's already sealed to his first wife. If the husband pre-deceases then the wife can only re-marry for time. Besides these things, Mormons are taught to venerate their Mo Ancestors and that includes the polygamy. So it's sleight of hand to say the Church has abandoned polygamy.
Look at what's being done here. The Texans are taking down the FLDS. Whether they will take them all the way down remains to be seen, but meanwhile, back in Mormondom, how about the Allreds? How about the Kingstons? Hell, for that matter, how about the same LeBaron group that killed all those people? They are all still in business and doing very well. None of them prostylize. Any outside blood comes in from mainstream Mormonism.
I don't know about the Turkey Baster deal. Seems vaguely plausible but not in keeping with normal polygamist practice. They seem to kind of like the old way if ya know what I mean.
QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 7 2008, 10:31 AM)
There is a small trickle of mainstream Mormons,
Huh ? If I understand some of your logic you feel because Mormons teach in heaven there may be polygamy that makes them practicing polygamist on earth .
Wow , Aint that kinda like saying if my idea of heaven is sitting on a cloud and playing a harp then I'm a cloud setting full time harp player on earth ?
Mormons teach what ever you do on earth you would do in heaven , Sooo , since most Mormons dont practice Polygamy here on earth they aint about to do it there , well unless your suggesting the polygamy rule outweighs this rule .
You see Cactus , your just as hard core about this polygamy stuff as the FLDS are , they forget everything else and focus on one doctrine and for them thats all there is to it .
Mormons like every religion I know of just kinda picks and chooses what gets them through the day so to speak . Heck thats easy , just so happens with the Bible and from book to book the Mormons use they contradict allot of these teachings. So use these to your best advantage I say . If I dont want to be a polygamist its the Book of Mormon for me . If you want to be a plyg , well its the Bible or D&C for you . It aint going to be any different in heaven .
What ever is bound on earth will bounded in heaven Mormons teach , well Cactus , if you were too look around 99.9% Mormons are bound and determined not to be polygamist .
Cactus , quit trying to foreordain Mormons going to heaven , who do you think you are ---a prophet ?
| QUOTE |
| At any rate, mainstream Mormons still practice polygamy |
Huh ? If I understand some of your logic you feel because Mormons teach in heaven there may be polygamy that makes them practicing polygamist on earth .
Wow , Aint that kinda like saying if my idea of heaven is sitting on a cloud and playing a harp then I'm a cloud setting full time harp player on earth ?
Mormons teach what ever you do on earth you would do in heaven , Sooo , since most Mormons dont practice Polygamy here on earth they aint about to do it there , well unless your suggesting the polygamy rule outweighs this rule .
You see Cactus , your just as hard core about this polygamy stuff as the FLDS are , they forget everything else and focus on one doctrine and for them thats all there is to it .
Mormons like every religion I know of just kinda picks and chooses what gets them through the day so to speak . Heck thats easy , just so happens with the Bible and from book to book the Mormons use they contradict allot of these teachings. So use these to your best advantage I say . If I dont want to be a polygamist its the Book of Mormon for me . If you want to be a plyg , well its the Bible or D&C for you . It aint going to be any different in heaven .
What ever is bound on earth will bounded in heaven Mormons teach , well Cactus , if you were too look around 99.9% Mormons are bound and determined not to be polygamist .
Cactus , quit trying to foreordain Mormons going to heaven , who do you think you are ---a prophet ?
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 7 2008, 06:51 PM) |
| Huh ? If I understand some of your logic you feel because Mormons teach in heaven there may be polygamy that makes them practicing polygamist on earth . Wow , Aint that kinda like saying if my idea of heaven is sitting on a cloud and playing a harp then I'm a cloud setting full time harp player on earth ? Mormons teach what ever you do on earth you would do in heaven , Sooo , since most Mormons dont practice Polygamy here on earth they aint about to do it there , well unless your suggesting the polygamy rule outweighs this rule . You see Cactus , your just as hard core about this polygamy stuff as the FLDS are , they forget everything else and focus on one doctrine and for them thats all there is to it . Mormons like every religion I know of just kinda picks and chooses what gets them through the day so to speak . Heck thats easy , just so happens with the Bible and from book to book the Mormons use they contradict allot of these teachings. So use these to your best advantage I say . If I dont want to be a polygamist its the Book of Mormon for me . If you want to be a plyg , well its the Bible or D&C for you . It aint going to be any different in heaven . What ever is bound on earth will bounded in heaven Mormons teach , well Cactus , if you were too look around 99.9% Mormons are bound and determined not to be polygamist . Cactus , quit trying to foreordain Mormons going to heaven , who do you think you are ---a prophet ? |
Yank I'm just telling you what I was taught at a little wee Mo Munchkin. That is, you won't get to the highest degree of glory unless you are practicing plural marriage and you can do that in the afterlife. That is where little spirit babies come from. Eventually you can become God over your own planet and then all those little spirit babies you made will inhabit bodies and carry it on. If that's not what you were taught then I'm sorry, we must have been members of different churches.
But it don't matter anyway. what I said originally before wandering off is that there is a steady trickle of Mormons who read their scriptures and enter into polygamy. You've probably met some of them. Most of the women in the Cenatennial Park bunch are from the mainstream. Polygamist doctrine is that the function of the mainstream church is to bring people to Mormonism, which will lead those some few to go on to polyhgamy. That's why there are no Polyg missionaries. The mainstream is doing it for them.
Soooo, that leads me back to saying polygamy will never die out as long as there is a mainstream church teaching that Joseph Smith was the true prophet of God.
What say you, Say?
| QUOTE (uncaduff @ Apr 7 2008, 08:10 AM) |
| ya say, maybe so. only thing, guy told me, heard it from somebody what wuz down there. still might be streatched a bit. ya never know , the fat lady's still got a helluva lotta singin ta do yet on this one. if ya can believe anything the media is sayin, this is a bigger deal than Shortcreek 53, anyway goin by the number uv people whats bein yanked out. |
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 7 2008, 07:02 PM) |
| Soooo, that leads me back to saying polygamy will never die out as long as there is a mainstream church teaching that Joseph Smith was the true prophet of God. What say you, Say? |
How can it die out if it is a true principle?
But don't expect it to ever be legalized or accepted by the mainstream either. It's not for everybody... only the chosen elite. And you ain't it.
deal with it. You aren't wired for 2 20's.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 7 2008, 09:59 PM) |
| How can it die out if it is a true principle? But don't expect it to ever be legalized or accepted by the mainstream either. It's not for everybody... only the chosen elite. And you ain't it. deal with it. You aren't wired for 2 20's. |
Man you got it right there. 2 20's would kill me.
It's too bad they are too uptight to really have fun with it though. A 20-60-20 sandwich would be something to remember. I'd phrase it a bit different. I'd say how can it die out if people beleive it's a true principle? But that only gets us to our different perspectives. I think you and I would agree that as long as there is a mainstream church teaching that Joseph Smith was the voice of God, there will be polygamists. Just, most of them have enough sense to keep their heads down. Warren has brought judgement day to the FLDS.
I don't beleive polygamy is actually illegal in today's world. Bigamy is, but no polygamist is going to take out marriage licenses to two different women at the same time. As long as they don't do that the essence of polygamy is screwing around while married, AKA adultery. Adultery is pretty much our national sport any more so nobody will prosecute just based on having more than one woman. It's the incidental crimes that are getting them in trouble.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 7 2008, 09:59 PM) |
| It's not for everybody... only the chosen elite. |
Well Sayit , taking your Little statement completely out of context , Id think you will more than agree how Jeffs & followers went about polygamy few would call this being elite .
Were they ever elite ? Well its hard to say , but I suspect a good many of them were faithful FLDS under Johnson . I kinda think you cant lay everything on the door step of Jeffs , so whats left to blame ? Could it be polygamy perhaps ? If its not polygamy or entirely Jeffs fault ,-- what went wrong ?
I cant see it being the Government or LDS's fault can you ?
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3034330#
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 8 2008, 04:04 PM) |
| Well Sayit , taking your Little statement completely out of context , Id think you will more than agree how Jeffs & followers went about polygamy few would call this being elite . Were they ever elite ? Well its hard to say , but I suspect a good many of them were faithful FLDS under Johnson . I kinda think you cant lay everything on the door step of Jeffs , so whats left to blame ? Could it be polygamy perhaps ? If its not polygamy or entirely Jeffs fault ,-- what went wrong ? I cant see it being the Government or LDS's fault can you ? http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3034330# |
yank, it aint even polygamy thats the problem. its more like the people aint smart enough ta not let some control freak git ahold of there lives an make em do weird shit.
Yeah, jeffs obviously wasn't wired for it either.
But I'm done talking about this. I'll let the record speak for it's self.
I can tell you that the public has no clue yet about what a travesty this is. If you think the State is vindicated by this CPS report, you are in for a big surprise yet.
| QUOTE |
| I can tell you that the public has no clue yet about what a travesty this is. If you think the State is vindicated by this CPS report, you are in for a big surprise yet |
Well Say I can respect your wishes and not expecting you to want to talk about any of this . I'd probably do the same if I were you .
Judging a little from the past I do think your right we're in for a surprise . But when it comes to polygamy I cant say anything really surprises me much , I half expect to be surprised most the time .
Over the 1953 raid the governor of Arizona lost his job , Dave Leavitt the county attorney who prosecuted Tom Green claims he wasnt re-elected because of this polygamy case he brought about .
So if by chance the Texas folks get their tit in a wringer over this raid it wouldn't surprise me at all .
But for what little any of us know right now I'd have to say its much to early to guess the out come .
I will say this , if what happens now turns out the same as what happened in 1953 this raid just bought the FLDS fifty or more years of hands off . I hope Texas gets it right for everybody in the long run . Polygamy ends .
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 9 2008, 07:42 AM) |
| I will say this , if what happens now turns out the same as what happened in 1953 this raid just bought the FLDS fifty or more years of hands off . I hope Texas gets it right for everybody in the long run . Polygamy ends . |
the difference between the this raid, and the one in the 1950s, is the emphasis has switched from something the state arguably has no business meddling in, namely how consenting adults run their lives, to what the state must prevent, physical and sexual abuse of children. Who knows how this angle will play out, although the physical evidence of many girl mothers, who are too young to be married, will garner support for state intervention
I wonder how the last few years of scrutiny, arrests, and Warren's fall has influenced the behavior of men towards their young wives in the Texas compound. Certainly, the pressures from the outside world will contribute to desparation and paranoia. (The parallels with Jonestown and Waco are unmistakable.) Has this contributed to the reported beating and rape of the young girl who initiated the raid. I wish some of the ex-plyg power chicks would check in. Where is Mahalo, Laude, Feral Fem, et al.?
There are a lot of differences between now and 1953. For one thing Warren had built up a dictatorship that is far worse then anything they had back then. Girls back then could leave, if they made up their minds to it. They were often pressured to marry but the law of placing hadn't been thought up. They had more freedom then than now. I'd imagine that the ones who really didn't like it had already left so when the raid came, there weren't many if any who welcomed it as a liberation. The way it is now, there must be a lot of them who would like to leave, but the exits have been blocked. Consider how Furnace had to connive to get out of there, and Carolyn Jessop had to wait for the perfect opportunity to sneak out at 4AM and drive back roads to avoid the guards. That was in Colo City. YFZ has been as locked down as North Korea, so there will be a certain number who will be saying "Thank God, what took you so long?"
In 1953, what brought the Governor down more than anything was the Mormons of Arizona who were very plugged in politically and were sympathetic to the Polygs. In Texas Mormons are a small minority. Most people out there are conserative Christians who consider mainstream Mormonism as a misguided cult that distorts Christianity. There is zip sympathy for the polygs.
Attitudes toward women have changed by a huge amount since the 53' raid. Back then people in mainstream America considered women's roles to be primarily mothers and wives. Today we have a woman running for president. There are Corporate CEO's and News Anchors and Legislators. Women have been liberated. The spectacle of FLDS confining girls to baby making roles will not fly at all in mainstream America.
If I thought a bit I could come up with more, but I'll about guarantee you no politician will be voted out in Texas for cracking down on Warren and his nutty followers.
In 1953, what brought the Governor down more than anything was the Mormons of Arizona who were very plugged in politically and were sympathetic to the Polygs. In Texas Mormons are a small minority. Most people out there are conserative Christians who consider mainstream Mormonism as a misguided cult that distorts Christianity. There is zip sympathy for the polygs.
Attitudes toward women have changed by a huge amount since the 53' raid. Back then people in mainstream America considered women's roles to be primarily mothers and wives. Today we have a woman running for president. There are Corporate CEO's and News Anchors and Legislators. Women have been liberated. The spectacle of FLDS confining girls to baby making roles will not fly at all in mainstream America.
If I thought a bit I could come up with more, but I'll about guarantee you no politician will be voted out in Texas for cracking down on Warren and his nutty followers.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 9 2008, 08:44 PM) |
| If I thought a bit I could come up with more, but I'll about guarantee you no politician will be voted out in Texas for cracking down on Warren and his nutty followers. |
Unless they start gloating and using it for a political football. It can have ways of ruining them that they don't even realize.
From what I can see they are still on shaky ground a bit with their real witness.
As much as I think this was an over reach, and pretty drastic for what evidence they actually had to justify it, I don't think it was really a top down politically motivated conspiracy like everything AZ has done so far.
warren was pretty in their face arrogant and stupid about doing whatever he wanted with little regard for the law.
Still there are a lot of vicious rumors and allegation flying fast and loose about what the lifestyle is really about. They've been hashed over endlessly on these blogs without much resolution.
This appears to be sort of a vindication glory day for the naysayers, but it's still not all how they think even yet, and problems not even for the same reasons they see, or think they see, in many respects.
| QUOTE |
| Thank God, what took you so long?" |
I feel very much this way . I'm very pleased Texas stepped in too try to stop all this polygamy practice mess . Its gone on way to long now and I do fault Utah for not stepping up to the plate years and years ago .
I will agree that the 53 raid and affect was gutted by the Mormon church back then , but as you say today is much different .
In 53 there was no" FLDS "church ", just a bunch of off cast Mormons practicing polygamy out in the desert , just a group of diehards .
Today, like it or not the FLDS is a recognized church and the practice of polygamy has become more accepted in society as a life style . Correct me if I'm wrong , but isn't polygamy part of libertarian platform in AZ?
So now you have a bonafyde " Church " where the practice of polygamy isn't so freak like in a time and age where its politically correct to accept all believes . Heck I can hear it now , whats a few thousand polygs compared 10 million or so illegal Mexicans .
I'd like for Texas to put a stop to polygamy, I sure would , but what bothers me now is here I am now hoping they find enough evidence to do just that . One hell of a thing to hope for when you think about it . That in its self bothers me allot
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 10 2008, 08:05 AM) |
| I feel very much this way . I'm very pleased Texas stepped in too try to stop all this polygamy practice mess . Its gone on way to long now and I do fault Utah for not stepping up to the plate years and years ago . |
I'm glad it was the state and not the feds. Having the federal government in charge of the raid would energize the Timothy McVeigh types with memories of Waco and Ruby Ridge. next thing you know, we'd have some idiot blowing up federal buildings protesting the federal government's tyranny in denying the age old right of middle-aged slobs to impregnate their underage nieces.
And yes, Utah and Arizona should be paying attention.
| QUOTE (Lara Avara @ Apr 9 2008, 12:51 PM) |
| the difference |
[/QUOTE]Where is Mahalo, Laude, Feral Fem, et al.? [QUOTE]
Gosh I'm with you , it would be good to hear what these Gals have to say , ya gotta love ol Laude , she can sure shake the dust off the rafters of this place . LOL, and its not that it doesnt need to be done .
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 10 2008, 11:44 AM) |
| [/QUOTE]Where is Mahalo, Laude, Feral Fem, et al.? [QUOTE] Gosh I'm with you , it would be good to hear what these Gals have to say , ya gotta love ol Laude , she can sure shake the dust off the rafters of this place . LOL, and its not that it doesnt need to be done . |
Well, we degenerated into a blog with 4 cranky old men squabbling endlessly about Global Warming. We bored them away. There wasn't a post about polygamy in over a month until Lara started this one in response to compellilng current events.
This forum is linked from my outdated but still useful polygamy website. I've Been considering changing that link so as to just direct readers to the Texas Polygamy blog where they keep up with what's a happening and let this one just drift off into the sunset, which is what it's been doing anyway.
The way I see it polygamy is legal now and has been for many years. The supreme court ruled that states can't make laws about sex practices among consenting adults. That was a case about gays, which had been a crime with jail time prior to the ruling. But the effect is, if a guy, such as any of us here, were legally married to one woman with one marriage certificate and we went to a bar or a church and picked us up a different woman and had sex with her, no law enforcement person would have anything to say about it. That is as long as they are legal age, consenting, money doesn't change hands, and it is done out of sight. Now, your wife may kill you for it, but that is between you and her. She should know that the actual murder would be illegal. but thing is if your actual legal wife didn't object you could bring the girl into your house and get it on, with your wife watching if that is what turned you on, or even participating, or the girl could bring her husband along and you could all get naked and lay in a pile like frogs and holler "Whoopee" as long as you didn't make so much noise or reveal yourselves to the point that the neighbors call the cops.
But of course you can't give her money, for some reason prostitution is moraly repulsive even though anything else under the sun - among freely consenting adults - is fine.
So, consider the Allreds up near Salt Lake. When Warren started making so much high profile trouble, Owen Allred called a news conference and stressed forcefully that his group follows the law and doesn't allow marriages among minors. He lived openly in Bluffdale with no problems because he didn't create problems. See, polygamy isn't illegal. If it actually had been, Owen would have been taken in. He was always open about his practice.
Anyone who argues that it is religious freedom to compel minor girls into marriages though, is not only perverted, but just plain stupid. It is rightfully illegal and one would hope that anyone participating, or allowing their daughter into such a relationship would be prosecuted.
Anyone who castes a minor son out on the street without support has committed a crime and should be prosecuted. I've been called evil and sinful and many other names but judgmental polygamists, yet I wouldn't even consider throwing the minors under my care out on the street. I'd rather shoot myself than to do something so evil. Anyone who won't commit to stand with their kids through whatever comes shouldn't be allowed to have kids. The fact that none of the "lost boys" parents have ever been prosecuted is another manifestation of how corrupt the system in Utah and Arizona is over the polygamists.
I don't see why it's hard to understand that nobody is persecuting these people for their religion, nor for polygamy. They are being prosecuted for serious crimes. I can't get away with those crimes and they shouldn't be able to either.
But of course you can't give her money, for some reason prostitution is moraly repulsive even though anything else under the sun - among freely consenting adults - is fine.
So, consider the Allreds up near Salt Lake. When Warren started making so much high profile trouble, Owen Allred called a news conference and stressed forcefully that his group follows the law and doesn't allow marriages among minors. He lived openly in Bluffdale with no problems because he didn't create problems. See, polygamy isn't illegal. If it actually had been, Owen would have been taken in. He was always open about his practice.
Anyone who argues that it is religious freedom to compel minor girls into marriages though, is not only perverted, but just plain stupid. It is rightfully illegal and one would hope that anyone participating, or allowing their daughter into such a relationship would be prosecuted.
Anyone who castes a minor son out on the street without support has committed a crime and should be prosecuted. I've been called evil and sinful and many other names but judgmental polygamists, yet I wouldn't even consider throwing the minors under my care out on the street. I'd rather shoot myself than to do something so evil. Anyone who won't commit to stand with their kids through whatever comes shouldn't be allowed to have kids. The fact that none of the "lost boys" parents have ever been prosecuted is another manifestation of how corrupt the system in Utah and Arizona is over the polygamists.
I don't see why it's hard to understand that nobody is persecuting these people for their religion, nor for polygamy. They are being prosecuted for serious crimes. I can't get away with those crimes and they shouldn't be able to either.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 10 2008, 06:19 PM) |
| . |
Cactus,
Nothing like watching the breaking news... reading the comments under the stories and following a few of these blogs to make me see how circular all this logic is.
Endless allegations, and polemics.. and even snarky coments like Laura's here. and Lauds used to be.. but no substance.. ever. People bitching about what isn't done.. people worried about the injustice done in what is.. on and on it goes.
Most of it is more from ignorance than even really understanding the culture, the real problems, or any of the issues in depth. Redefining things like.. "children" and then expecting someone else to apply it ex post facto.
The problem is that all this swirls around some very complex issues, that go right to the heart of constitutional freedoms, definitions of religion, fundamental belief, core values, and stuff like that that is not clearly defined. Legal age, consent, lifestyle, etc etc etc... things that are influenced more by personal opinion and precedent, and what is politically correct than the they are by real statute.
A young girl can kill her baby, but she isn't mature enough to decide to keep it. She can screw around, but not get married. She can run away and become a prostitute, but not be "arranged" into a relationship. and on it goes.
We kill people for henious crimes and call it capital punishment. But if some preacher makes a comment about paying for unpardonable sins... it's a huge "blood atonement" sensationalized scandal, even though they are both talking about the same thing, and nobody did either, it gets extrapolated into something horrible because of who is saying it.
And just like this comment of yours.. prosecute the parents. But nobody seems to ever learn that you really need real complaints... and actual witnesses. Not phone calls, and Jane Does. Elisa Walls'.. who will shed their tears on the witness stand, however painful and scary that is, or however just or unjust your opinion.. that is the only thing that will work. Truth lies or indifferent, the judicial system is in the real world, and all this endless hypberbole is nothing but blogosphereic bullshit.
And then there is the double standards everywhere you look. People who want to do any kinky kind of thing they please on the one hand, and then make sure no other skeevy pervert does their own thing on the other. A guy can have a 4000 dollar a night hooker, but not a concubine he pays the rent for.
So I say hell ya.. shut down the blog. lol I'm weary of feeling compelled to check it just outta curiosity there might be something interesting about someone I used to know. and only get all these screwed up screwed over opinions that are so pointless.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 11 2008, 12:33 AM) |
| Cactus, Nothing like watching the breaking news... reading the comments under the stories and following a few of these blogs to make me see how circular all this logic is. Endless allegations, and polemics.. and even snarky coments like Laura's here. and Lauds used to be.. but no substance.. ever. People bitching about what isn't done.. people worried about the injustice done in what is.. on and on it goes. Most of it is more from ignorance than even really understanding the culture, the real problems, or any of the issues in depth. Redefining things like.. "children" and then expecting someone else to apply it ex post facto. The problem is that all this swirls around some very complex issues, that go right to the heart of constitutional freedoms, definitions of religion, fundamental belief, core values, and stuff like that that is not clearly defined. Legal age, consent, lifestyle, etc etc etc... things that are influenced more by personal opinion and precedent, and what is politically correct than the they are by real statute. A young girl can kill her baby, but she isn't mature enough to decide to keep it. She can screw around, but not get married. She can run away and become a prostitute, but not be "arranged" into a relationship. and on it goes. We kill people for henious crimes and call it capital punishment. But if some preacher makes a comment about paying for unpardonable sins... it's a huge "blood atonement" sensationalized scandal, even though they are both talking about the same thing, and nobody did either, it gets extrapolated into something horrible because of who is saying it. And just like this comment of yours.. prosecute the parents. But nobody seems to ever learn that you really need real complaints... and actual witnesses. Not phone calls, and Jane Does. Elisa Walls'.. who will shed their tears on the witness stand, however painful and scary that is, or however just or unjust your opinion.. that is the only thing that will work. Truth lies or indifferent, the judicial system is in the real world, and all this endless hypberbole is nothing but blogosphereic bullshit. And then there is the double standards everywhere you look. People who want to do any kinky kind of thing they please on the one hand, and then make sure no other skeevy pervert does their own thing on the other. A guy can have a 4000 dollar a night hooker, but not a concubine he pays the rent for. So I say hell ya.. shut down the blog. lol I'm weary of feeling compelled to check it just outta curiosity there might be something interesting about someone I used to know. and only get all these screwed up screwed over opinions that are so pointless. |
Actually, I just discovered I messed up on the forum. I set it so newbys had to be approved when I booted Street, but it doesn't e-mail me that newbys are waiting to be approved. So nobody has been able to get on here for the past two months. Nobody said I was any too bright.
I kind of hear what you are saying, but not fully. There are some pretty solid standards in our law and in our society. A child is a person under 18 years old. A kid who is 17 years and 364 days old has to have someone who is legally responsible for him. The next day he can head out on his own. So for the lost boys, you don't need a complainant. If a kid less than 18 has been dumped on the streets, whoever the guardian is has committed a crime called child abandonment.
Legal age of consent is a bit different. It varies from state to state. Still it is a hard fast number in each state. You say it is alright for a girl to run away and be a prostitute. I don't know of any jurisdiction in America where that is alright. It happens, but is not legally condoned. Minor children cannot run away legally and Prostitution is illegal except in a few counties in Nevada. Those legal houses don't hire minors. You can't justify institutional pedophilia in the FLDS because some kid somewhere ran away and took up an illegal lifestyle.
It might be that mother nature doesn't follow a schedule that can be exactly quantified by the number of days a person has breathed, but the law has a hard time with exceptions. It is fair to make the same rule apply to everyone and make it simple enough that a reasonable person can follow it. There is no reason the FLDS can't raise their kids to legal age and there is no reason the old guys can't hold off until a girl is of legal age either. The concept of "Consenting Adult" isn't a very complicated one. There are two words that are in common use. Seems like these guys have problems with both "Consenting" and "Adult".
You are right about this keeps going over the same ground. You have said before that we outsiders don't really know what is going on. We are just reciting the same old unfounded allegations. But if that's so, tell me where we have it wrong. Are there girls under legal age who are being ordered into sexual unions or not? That is a simple yes or no question that can be recast as are there felonies being committed or not. What I hear from people who have left there is that indeed, compelling minor girls into sexual unions is common practice. Please, correct me at will. What am I missing?
As I have said, Say, nobody is persecuting the polygs who follow the law. I think you and I could agree that what is happening here is nutcase Warren has led his group to the verge of destruction.
QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 11 2008, 12:33 AM)
| QUOTE |
| So I say hell ya.. shut down the blog. lol I'm weary of feeling compelled to check it just outta curiosity there might be something interesting about someone I used to know. and only get all these screwed up screwed over opinions that are so pointless |
Good day Sayit ,
I dont know Sayit , For me I guess there are two ways to look at this web site that I've been a member of going on three years now .
I had something in mind when I first started posting here , and well , you know better than most that has been pretty much a failure to date . Over the years I've known quite a few polygamist . They had the same southern Utah drawl , dressed the same , went to the same church from the same town , Colorado City .
From the outside looking in they were all the same and some how this made me think not only was I better than them but gave me the right to judge them all by the bad dealings I and others had with a few . So I did , for years.
Believe it or not this site has made me look at polygamy in a different light , not so much the practice of polygamy as I see it but those involved and those who choose to leave .
I actually thought choosing to leave polygamy would be a very simple decision to make , it just seemed like common sense to me that more would be gained than lost over all . I never understood the strength and commitment making a decision like this would take , still dont really .
But thats just part of it , I never understood the strength and commitment it takes for those who choose to stay hoping to change what they have lost with the Jeffs , still dont .
How I feel about polygamy hasn't changed but how I view those who have been apart of it sure has , I think I've came along ways in many respects , Three years ago I didn't think I would ever find I could respect or trust any dang ol polyg , but I was wrong .
Sayit , could it be you stick around here for the same reasons some of us have ? Just a thought , but I had to ask . Just seems you've taking some steps also towards the center of understanding also.
QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 11 2008, 05:04 AM)
| QUOTE |
| As I have said, Say, nobody is persecuting the polygs who follow the law. I think you and I could agree that what is happening here is nutcase Warren has led his group to the verge of destruction. |
Exactly.. you a have said. So now there are over 400 kids.. i mean victims.. who are now the property of Texas, instead of "members" of their own family and over a hundred felons ... abusers? This isn't persecution? Polemics all over again. Yours and mine.
Don't you see that? for every "allegation" that I made you have some conjured apologetic. I won't try to go point by point.. cuz we've both been over them here a hundred times.. ( or less) lol But it's all about definitions, and some of them are tenuous at best.
I am familiar with all the politics behind this kind of stuff too. We want to give CPS and LE the credit for being the good guys, but the truth is they put a lot of shit in the game.
a headline that goes "Texas Defends Raid" really means.. we are worried about how the hell we are going to justify what has happened based on what is looking more and more everyday like it should have been checked out better first. CPS saying, "we are certain we have the girl but have not identified her yet".. means we have interviewed all the girls between 14 and 18 and they all "seem" to have other names and identifications, and don't fit the profile. The man who was accused is still our suspect, means, The story doesn't check out worth a damn, but we still have a warrant on the books we don't know what the hell to do with, and aren't ready to quash it, or execute it, but know that arresting the guy could only makes look like bigger fools if we don't find the "victim" first.
But this is all just prosecution.. we had to do it. Not religious persecution. Right? But anyways.. I know all the counter arguments too.. I've been reading them for days. That's how it goes.
And then there are all the extrapolations and rumors and innuendos on top of all that.
What you are missing Cactus, is that you've been lied to. And not just by the pligs.
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 11 2008, 07:23 AM) |
| How I feel about polygamy hasn't changed but how I view those who have been apart of it sure has , I think I've came along ways in many respects , Three years ago I didn't think I would ever find I could respect or trust any dang ol polyg , but I was wrong . Sayit , could it be you stick around here for the same reasons some of us have ? Just a thought , but I had to ask . Just seems you've taking some steps also towards the center of understanding also. |
If people are really honestly interested in the truth, it makes a conversation a whole lot more interesting and meaningful.
One of the first things I noticed here, way back when, was what I branded the "Laudisms" wild ass conjecture stated as a given fact based on polemic bullshit by a bitter xPlig as if they were an "insider". There is no way you can even argue with that stuff, let alone reason them to a different understanding.
I have come to a better understanding of what the counter arguments are. The frustration is that you can't defend your fundamentals against this "supid or criminal" Laudism without sounding like you are condoning "child abuse" and protecting felons.
And then along comes some real whack job like warren, who seems hell bent on making all the accusations that were ever made against, Religion, Fundamentalist, marriage, polygamy, family values, and even the LDS church, not just the FLDS look like all the ugly crap was all always true, when most of it never was. But woah can they get a lot of mileage out that little "most" like it was a confession. Let's elaborate on that please.. I need you to make my case for me for being less than perfect.
It's always easier to use a good persons ethics against them than it is to hang a guilt trip on a self proclaimed sob. "Everyone knows I'm damn liar and a thief and mean bastard whoremonger, but you told a little fib, and cheated on your taxes and married a girl under 18 and that is against YOUR religion and against the law, you are a skeevy pious hypocrite who probably still spanks your own kids and won't let them have an original thought.
but hey.. dun ta dun... drumroll... The Texas Rangers are here to the rescue. Finally.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 11 2008, 01:02 AM) |
| Where is Mahalo, Laude, Feral Fem, et al.? Well, we degenerated into a blog with 4 cranky old men squabbling endlessly about Global Warming. We bored them away. There wasn't a post about polygamy in over a month until Lara started this one in response to compellilng current events. This forum is linked from my outdated but still useful polygamy website. I've Been considering changing that link so as to just direct readers to the Texas Polygamy blog where they keep up with what's a happening and let this one just drift off into the sunset, which is what it's been doing anyway. |
Well.
That kind of takes the wind out of my sails just now. But then it's only facing reality.
I mean how will my life make any sense without butting horns with Yankie and without Say getting pissed off at me on a regular basis?
In our heyday, this forum was quite a vibrant community. But yeah, since the most of women up and left town, it's been kind of drab.
The posts of Lara Avara and of bbgae have been a much needed exception to this trend.
On the Texax raid. It's about freaking time, I say.
I wonder what has become of the 16 year-old girl whose reporting of abuse from her elderly husband was the pretext for the raid. Do you suppose the husband whisked her off to Canada or other parts unknown? If so, that's tragic.
Hey. I'm thinking of setting up a new forum, a support group and 12 step program for coping with internet forum co-dependency. I'm thinking that on this new forum, we'll discuss, among other things, global warming.
Oh wait. That was before I saw that hippimama has signed on.
I telll you this. The hippies will rise again.
I telll you this. The hippies will rise again.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 11 2008, 08:43 AM) |
| If people are really honestly interested in the truth, it makes a conversation a whole lot more interesting and meaningful. but hey.. dun ta dun... drumroll... The Texas Rangers are here to the rescue. Finally. |
Thanks for the reply ,
I'm kinda having a hard time getting the general drift of your last post , sometimes I can be pretty thick ( NO LOL ) its true .
I wonder how many of these folks down in Texas may be some of your relatives , Sister , brother ,old school chums . Little doubt you know quite a few of them . It would only be natural for you do feel a whole lot different than me or others would , you cant help yourself for feeling like you do , concerned and angry . Heck I understand that .
I also think it would be and has been wrong for others to expect you to answer for what the Jeffs years has brought about and to your credit I dont remember you ever making excuses for Jeffs or those that choose to follow him .
But I think your wrong about some things perhaps . Well , it does seem in some ways what has happened this last week has been ruthless and a violation of your rights as a citizen of this country . But I dont think it was deliberate persecution of the FLDS , I doubt anyone in Texas went out of their way to deliberately hurt the FLDS but in their minds it was about doing what they felt best .
Can you blame them ? The FLDS has been all over the news and has a tract record for under age marriages , deifying the law and abandoning hundreds of kids to the streets .
I really think it was Jeffs and the FLDS who brought this about and not the other way around , you kinda reap what you sow , Texas didn't plant these seeds of mistrust or misunderstanding , nope those kind of seeds belong to the FLDS .
No , I dont see this as persecution or denying your rights , I see this as trying to protect FLDS and ensuring the rights of the FLDS and Texas doing the best with what little the FLDS gave concerning all that has happened in the past .
Could it be the people of Texas are perhaps a victim of the FLDS ? I kinda think so , the FLDS went first to Texas's door step , they didn't come to yours in the beginning . And anyway way you want to look at it , Texas is tying to do the best for the FLDS faithful and I kinda doubt Jeffs and his membership would ever lend a hand to Texas anymore than I ever saw them do for AZ & UT.
I wish sometimes you and I could switch places for a week , might surprise both of us how directional we tend to be .
You know, I don't understand a lot of this. Such as this guy who is the husband of the complainant in Texas. He was convicted of Child Molestation a year ago. I have no doubt that if I was convicted of that, at my age I wouldn't live long enough to get out of prison. This guy got probation. And then, having got away almost scott free, they have the gall to claim they are being persecuted. Seems to me they are being given get out of jail free cards.
QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 11 2008, 09:33 PM)
You know, I don't understand a lot of this. ----- You need to look into the past to understand the FLDS and whats up with our laws today . LOL ------------------------
I kinda think there are some similarities is some ways with today's FLDS and the problems the early Mormons had back east . I could be shot for saying this but I do think its true , half the problems the Mormons had back east they brought upon themselves , you may say they started this persecution if that is what it was .
Their " Persecution " actually started befor the cat ws out of the bag about polygamy . They had this attitude problem that they were so much better than the non Mormons brothers and they wore it on their shirt sleeves that they were the only ones going to be saved . It didn't help that they had a tendency to gather up in one spot and swarm like a hive a bees becoming a political threat to their newest neighbors . I suppose to the non Mormons it was bad enough they moved in on them , but to be governed now by these self richeous Mormons was going way to far , they'd seen enough and its time for the Mormons to pack up and leave with a little help from them .
From New York these Mormons headed west to Illinois, then Missouri . But they didn't really learn how to get along with their neighbors after the problems they have been haveing . Missouri tried to work with the Mormons , they gave them their own county , Clay county it was called as I recall . There you go, says the Governor, your very own county , now just stay in it . So the Mormon hive started to swarm there also bringing in even more Mormons untill the Clay county wasn't big enough and they started to buy up land out side this county and once again started having problems with there neighbors .
There was a trait these early Mormons had and to a non Mormon it must of bothered them the most ,and I think caused the most problems for both non Mormon and Mormon themselves . The Mormons felt they were living a higher law and the laws of the land were OK as long as it didn't get in there way of what they had in mind to do . Well , this idea caused the Mormons problems , and then along comes polygamy and the non Mormons had enough once more .
Head west young Mormon church says the state of Missouri and the Mormons who have been heading west anyway do just that . So the Mormon hive swarms to Utah were they wont be " persecuted " and where they can have their very own Zionist kingdom and practice their latest law of polygamy , yup , where Gods laws over rule the laws of this land .
But what did they learn from all their difficulties ? Not one thing . Wasn't long befor they were in trouble again . But I kinda think after their little ordeal with Johnston's army Ol Brigham had to admit to save what he had gained there would have to be changes . He stepped down as territory governor and submitted to most of the laws of the land except polygamy .
There are some who fault Woodruff , the Mormon prophet who in time finally started to put a end to this practice of polygamy . To save the remaining territory he knew the Church needed to step down from polygamy as well . I pretty confident Brigham would have done the same thing being faced with the reality his kingdom was being whittled away and now with the threat to the church itself he would have kinda figured -- It is better for one law to die than a church to dwindle into nothing .---
So when I look at Texas and the current happenings there , it just reminds me of the past problems the early Mormon Church caused for themselves for the most part , it isn't persecution but in some ways Mormon progression to face the facts , that if you dont want your church to dwindle away even more from what you have already lost , Stop polygamy . Just like what happened in the past once you do your illegal efforts to keep it alive will stop as well . Simply the Flds stop persecuting themselves . Just follow the laws of this country and the FLDS's problems will be over .
| QUOTE |
| they have the gall to claim they are being persecuted |
I kinda think there are some similarities is some ways with today's FLDS and the problems the early Mormons had back east . I could be shot for saying this but I do think its true , half the problems the Mormons had back east they brought upon themselves , you may say they started this persecution if that is what it was .
Their " Persecution " actually started befor the cat ws out of the bag about polygamy . They had this attitude problem that they were so much better than the non Mormons brothers and they wore it on their shirt sleeves that they were the only ones going to be saved . It didn't help that they had a tendency to gather up in one spot and swarm like a hive a bees becoming a political threat to their newest neighbors . I suppose to the non Mormons it was bad enough they moved in on them , but to be governed now by these self richeous Mormons was going way to far , they'd seen enough and its time for the Mormons to pack up and leave with a little help from them .
From New York these Mormons headed west to Illinois, then Missouri . But they didn't really learn how to get along with their neighbors after the problems they have been haveing . Missouri tried to work with the Mormons , they gave them their own county , Clay county it was called as I recall . There you go, says the Governor, your very own county , now just stay in it . So the Mormon hive started to swarm there also bringing in even more Mormons untill the Clay county wasn't big enough and they started to buy up land out side this county and once again started having problems with there neighbors .
There was a trait these early Mormons had and to a non Mormon it must of bothered them the most ,and I think caused the most problems for both non Mormon and Mormon themselves . The Mormons felt they were living a higher law and the laws of the land were OK as long as it didn't get in there way of what they had in mind to do . Well , this idea caused the Mormons problems , and then along comes polygamy and the non Mormons had enough once more .
Head west young Mormon church says the state of Missouri and the Mormons who have been heading west anyway do just that . So the Mormon hive swarms to Utah were they wont be " persecuted " and where they can have their very own Zionist kingdom and practice their latest law of polygamy , yup , where Gods laws over rule the laws of this land .
But what did they learn from all their difficulties ? Not one thing . Wasn't long befor they were in trouble again . But I kinda think after their little ordeal with Johnston's army Ol Brigham had to admit to save what he had gained there would have to be changes . He stepped down as territory governor and submitted to most of the laws of the land except polygamy .
There are some who fault Woodruff , the Mormon prophet who in time finally started to put a end to this practice of polygamy . To save the remaining territory he knew the Church needed to step down from polygamy as well . I pretty confident Brigham would have done the same thing being faced with the reality his kingdom was being whittled away and now with the threat to the church itself he would have kinda figured -- It is better for one law to die than a church to dwindle into nothing .---
So when I look at Texas and the current happenings there , it just reminds me of the past problems the early Mormon Church caused for themselves for the most part , it isn't persecution but in some ways Mormon progression to face the facts , that if you dont want your church to dwindle away even more from what you have already lost , Stop polygamy . Just like what happened in the past once you do your illegal efforts to keep it alive will stop as well . Simply the Flds stop persecuting themselves . Just follow the laws of this country and the FLDS's problems will be over .
HEELLOO!!!! 
I'M here!!!! (Sort of.)
I have been unbelievably busy. You have no idea. I may not be Feral Fem, (I like her too), or any of the others, but I AM here.
PLEASE don't shut down the blog. I LIKE hanging out with you four grouchy old men and Lara. Even if you did bore me with global warming. I still had my say on that subject before going however.
Yankie-
It's very noble of you to want polygamy extinct. But that will never happen. The best we can logically hope for is to abolish most of the abuses that happen inside polygamy. Let me also point out that these same abuses also happen (though not through the same chain of events) in mainstream society.
Any thoughts on the beds found in the temple anyone?
Or of the pictures of those who were taken away?
I'M here!!!! (Sort of.)I have been unbelievably busy. You have no idea. I may not be Feral Fem, (I like her too), or any of the others, but I AM here.
PLEASE don't shut down the blog. I LIKE hanging out with you four grouchy old men and Lara. Even if you did bore me with global warming. I still had my say on that subject before going however.
Yankie-
It's very noble of you to want polygamy extinct. But that will never happen. The best we can logically hope for is to abolish most of the abuses that happen inside polygamy. Let me also point out that these same abuses also happen (though not through the same chain of events) in mainstream society.
Any thoughts on the beds found in the temple anyone?
Or of the pictures of those who were taken away?
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 11 2008, 09:33 PM) |
| You know, I don't understand a lot of this. Such as this guy who is the husband of the complainant in Texas. He was convicted of Child Molestation a year ago. I have no doubt that if I was convicted of that, at my age I wouldn't live long enough to get out of prison. This guy got probation. And then, having got away almost scott free, they have the gall to claim they are being persecuted. Seems to me they are being given get out of jail free cards. |
Oh come on Cactus???
You are saying this as though it's all cut and dried. If you'd said this last week, I could maybe give you a pass on it.. but now? Now it is terribly disingenous, or else you haven't been paying attention for a week.
But if by some weird act of fate it does turn out to be true somehow? Woah.. then shit is gonna hit the fan like never before...
... and then you'd be justified in saying what you did here. But until you know that, It's more of the same: Condemnation before investigation, Prejudice.
In fact.. even saying that prematurely is persecution.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 12 2008, 10:19 PM) |
| Oh come on Cactus??? You are saying this as though it's all cut and dried. If you'd said this last week, I could maybe give you a pass on it.. but now? Now it is terribly disingenous, or else you haven't been paying attention for a week. But if by some weird act of fate it does turn out to be true somehow? Woah.. then shit is gonna hit the fan like never before... ... and then you'd be justified in saying what you did here. But until you know that, It's more of the same: Condemnation before investigation, Prejudice. In fact.. even saying that prematurely is persecution. |
I think you missed what I was saying here Say. Dale Barlow was prosecuted and convicted in Arizona last year. He's on probation now. that's been his defense is he couldn't have been abusing her at YFZ because his probation officer says he hasn't been to Texas. I wasn't prejudging him for the Texas case, I was saying I know of a guy here in Phoenix who was convicted of sex with a minor and he did 5 hard years plus lifetime parole. Why did this Dale Barlow get so much lighter a sentence? I think these guys are getting away with minimal sentences.
The way I see it, we are free to believe anything we want. But regardless of what we believe, we aren't free to break the law. If a polyg has sex with a minor he should serve the same time I would if I were convicted of the same crime. That has not been the practice in Utah or Arizona.
You know, with all the inbreeding that has taken place through the years, I wonder if they could even identify a parent with DNA. The may find that most of those people have the same DNA print.
| QUOTE (bbgae @ Apr 12 2008, 07:47 PM) |
| HEELLOO!!!! I'M here!!!! (Sort of.) I have been unbelievably busy. You have no idea. I may not be Feral Fem, (I like her too), or any of the others, but I AM here. PLEASE don't shut down the blog. I LIKE hanging out with you four grouchy old men and Lara. Even if you did bore me with global warming. I still had my say on that subject before going however. Yankie- It's very noble of you to want polygamy extinct. But that will never happen. The best we can logically hope for is to abolish most of the abuses that happen inside polygamy. Let me also point out that these same abuses also happen (though not through the same chain of events) in mainstream society. Any thoughts on the beds found in the temple anyone? Or of the pictures of those who were taken away? |
Well thanks BBgae , good to hear from you .
I've been meaning to say that I'm impressed as hell with some of your writings on that PP site , not just yours , but there is a lot of talent that comes from your old stomping grounds , so I guess I'm saying this as well to someone else . Some secrets are best to keep and for me I'd just as soon this be one .
I've been following this story out of Texas pretty closely and I dont know what to make of allot of it , the beds , the girl who "called " for help , how others are going to deal with these children and their future . I've been trying to hold back forming a opinion , the only real thing I have to go on is the past , and well , although the possibilities are out there judging from the past about these said abuses I think its good enough for me to wait and see what all comes of it .
There is one thing that I cant grasp , I read a article that quoted Isac Wyler saying some of the children who were at FYZ had been selected to go there if they were under the age of 6 years old . He implied the parents of these children stayed behind . Something about preparing these innocent children to be worthy to go Zion .
Would you or perhaps others know more about that ?
I got to be honest with you BBgae, I have a real big problem when a Church's needs are more important the those in a church . The people in a church should be more important then the Temples or its leaders . The way I see it , leaders of a church should serve the people and not the other way around . Later Bbgae .
| QUOTE |
| The may find that most of those people have the same DNA print. |
I understand why you might think this way , but to come out and say it to someone I find offencive lacking any class. Maybe you didn't mean it the way it comes across to me and I would suppose others , but it leaves a ? mark why it was said at all .
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 13 2008, 08:42 AM) |
| I understand why you might think this way , but to come out and say it to someone I find offencive lacking any class. Maybe you didn't mean it the way it comes across to me and I would suppose others , but it leaves a ? mark why it was said at all . |
I'm not reading you, Yank, which isn't very unusual I guess. One of the reasons us ornery old men are so contankerous among each other is we talk a lot and hear little.
What I'm saying is, with several generations where marriage between double first cousins is common and wise man Warren has forbid outsiders from bringing in any new DNA infusions, the amount of genetic diversity among the FLDS is probably about like a bacterial mat.
It's not just the polygs either. Us mainstreamers are descended from a few prolific horn dogs. My mother and one aunt both died of ovarian cancer and two of her brothers died of Colon Cancer and one of my sisters had Ovarian cancer but has survived. Turns out there is a gene that they figure started in America with one couple that came to New England in the 1600's. Utah is a hotbed for this gene because so many of us are descended from that one couple. So the inbreeding spreading that defective gene may well be the death of me - literally. I can imagine someday telling people who know me I have cancer of the butthole and they will reply, which part of you has it, butthole?
| QUOTE |
| What I'm saying is, with several generations where marriage between double first cousins is common and wise man Warren has forbid outsiders from bringing in any new DNA infusions, the amount of genetic diversity among the FLDS is probably about like a bacterial mat. |
Ok. Here's the really ironic part. Growing up there, you weren't 'worthy' enough or 'righteous' enough unless you were a Barlow or a Jessop (or a Jeffs). I come from one of the very smallest families descended from some of the very last true converts to the FLDS. Proud owner of the very badly needed 'new' genes. And for that reason and the reason my father only had one wife I was looked down on and sneered at by certain people the whole time I grew up in Colorado City. They are freaking proud of their inbred genes. Not the inbred part, but that fact that they descended from a 'prophet'. (John Y. Barlow).
I have seen the Fumarase disease first hand. I used to go help my sister-in-law with her three disabled children.
| QUOTE |
| The may find that most of those people have the same DNA print. |
I don't think so. They genes might be extremely close, but I do not think they will be the same. It's not scientifically possible unless all the children were born identical twins-? to one set of parents.
| QUOTE |
| He implied the parents of these children stayed behind . Something about preparing these innocent children to be worthy to go Zion . Would you or perhaps others know more about that ? |
The only thing I can think of, Yankie, is that the children are pure and since the people in Zion are supposed to be pure, they might be sent there to remain pure while they grow up in preparation? for the Second Coming of Christ? There are numerous scriptures about this.
In the Bible, "Let the little children come", "And the lion shall lay down with the lamb and a little children shall lead them", "Ye must come unto to the Lord with a pure heart like unto a little child".
I think I may have messed up the wording in some of the quotes and I can't tell you the exact references, but I 'm a little rusty.
| QUOTE |
| I have a real big problem when a Church's needs are more important the those in a church . The people in a church should be more important then the Temples or its leaders . The way I see it , leaders of a church should serve the people and not the other way around. |
I completely agree with you.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 12 2008, 10:59 PM) |
| I think you missed what I was saying here Say. Dale Barlow was prosecuted and convicted in Arizona last year. He's on probation now. that's been his defense is he couldn't have been abusing her at YFZ because his probation officer says he hasn't been to Texas. I wasn't prejudging him for the Texas case, I was saying I know of a guy here in Phoenix who was convicted of sex with a minor and he did 5 hard years plus lifetime parole. Why did this Dale Barlow get so much lighter a sentence? I think these guys are getting away with minimal sentences. The way I see it, we are free to believe anything we want. But regardless of what we believe, we aren't free to break the law. If a polyg has sex with a minor he should serve the same time I would if I were convicted of the same crime. That has not been the practice in Utah or Arizona. You know, with all the inbreeding that has taken place through the years, I wonder if they could even identify a parent with DNA. The may find that most of those people have the same DNA print. |
Ha... then it's a slam dunk. All of the women and all of the men are the parents to all of the kids. Nobody can marry anybody without breaking the law and, everyone on the compound is an abused victim. Arrest them all for incest, if you can't find anything thing else stupid or criminal enough.
It's really easy to see Cactus, why those guys all got such light sentences. There was no complaint. Not even an anonymous phone call. Go Figure? The state had to find the "victims" and convince them with a birth certificate for evidence that they were brainwashed, miserable, unhappy, abused, and had no idea how good life could be, and if they put "Father" in jail for it then somehow that would fix it for them, and make their world a better place. And of course they had Flora and Carolyn to verify it all; insiders, xFLDS members, who know how it really is.
Gosh .. if only a few of those gooftroop Mormon's would only listen to you. You could explain to them that their testimony is a fraud.
QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 13 2008, 02:32 PM)
I'm not reading you, Yank, which isn't very unusual I guess.
Could be one of the reasons as you say , With out going into any detail quite a bit of what I read and hear I know what the words whether written or spoken are saying but I dont always know what they mean . There is a difference , well there is for me . So my word association can be out of line . My poor ol brain just dosnt understand patterns all that well , so I tend to look for meaning a little bit different I guess. I will say this , when a older Navajo chey comes ups and says something to me in broken out of place words , well , I'm really good at that to know the meaning , cause in some ways that's all I've ever done .
Couple of post ago Sayit made a post you may have read , Took a while for me to kinda figure out where he was coming from , you read the words but didn't look to see what he meant , maybe you did , I dont know .
To me Sayit was saying , he'd really like to have a decent conversation about polygamy , but he cant , its not that he hasn't tried but you've already made up your mind he's wrong no matter what he was to say , so whats the use in trying anymore . He is willing to give up trying , maybe he has . But I really dont think he wants too . Yup ol Sayit seems pretty frustrated and in allot of ways I dont blame him ,not that is crap dont stink also , but if you bring up about him going to far He'll back down .
Go back and read his post Cactus and tell me I'm wrong , and then tell me how maybe he wont take to well being referred to as a in bred polyg , even if you didn't mean it that way , but I cant see even if you read that post you listened very well .
Theres been a pattern going on that even I can see post after post that I'm trying to step away from , this --Insult the man and replete the chants and mantra , over and over , Gosh I'm tired of it .
| QUOTE |
| I'm not reading you, Yank, which isn't very unusual I guess. One of the reasons us ornery old men are so contankerous among each other is we talk a lot and hear little. |
Could be one of the reasons as you say , With out going into any detail quite a bit of what I read and hear I know what the words whether written or spoken are saying but I dont always know what they mean . There is a difference , well there is for me . So my word association can be out of line . My poor ol brain just dosnt understand patterns all that well , so I tend to look for meaning a little bit different I guess. I will say this , when a older Navajo chey comes ups and says something to me in broken out of place words , well , I'm really good at that to know the meaning , cause in some ways that's all I've ever done .
Couple of post ago Sayit made a post you may have read , Took a while for me to kinda figure out where he was coming from , you read the words but didn't look to see what he meant , maybe you did , I dont know .
To me Sayit was saying , he'd really like to have a decent conversation about polygamy , but he cant , its not that he hasn't tried but you've already made up your mind he's wrong no matter what he was to say , so whats the use in trying anymore . He is willing to give up trying , maybe he has . But I really dont think he wants too . Yup ol Sayit seems pretty frustrated and in allot of ways I dont blame him ,not that is crap dont stink also , but if you bring up about him going to far He'll back down .
Go back and read his post Cactus and tell me I'm wrong , and then tell me how maybe he wont take to well being referred to as a in bred polyg , even if you didn't mean it that way , but I cant see even if you read that post you listened very well .
Theres been a pattern going on that even I can see post after post that I'm trying to step away from , this --Insult the man and replete the chants and mantra , over and over , Gosh I'm tired of it .
QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 13 2008, 04:51 PM)
Ha... then it's a slam dunk. All of the women and all of the men are the parents to all of the kids. Nobody can marry anybody without breaking the law and, everyone on the compound is an abused victim. Arrest them all for incest, if you can't find anything thing else stupid or criminal enough.
It's really easy to see Cactus, why those guys all got such light sentences. There was no complaint. Not even an anonymous phone call. Go Figure? The state had to find the "victims" and convince them with a birth certificate for evidence that they were brainwashed, miserable, unhappy, abused, and had no idea how good life could be, and if they put "Father" in jail for it then somehow that would fix it for them, and make their world a better place. And of course they had Flora and Carolyn to verify it all; insiders, xFLDS members, who know how it really is.
Gosh .. if only a few of those gooftroop Mormon's would only listen to you. You could explain to them that their testimony is a fraud.
If there was no complaint, then why were they convicted? I'm not talking about people who've been accused. I'm talking about Dale Barlow, who I guess pled no contest, which is sort of like a soft guilty plea. or another was Rodney Holm, where thee was an actual complainant. He got a year of work release, which is very light for the crime.
I'm no legal scholar, Say. But seems to me, if people hear a bang and come running and find a dead guy laying shot and I'm standing there with a smoking gun, what you are saying is I can get away with it because he won't be filing a complaint. I don't think it works that way because the state can prosecute if they can prove a crime took place, whether the victim complains or not.
I can see you'd like to blame all this on Flora, but as far as I know she's never testified in any case except when she was abused herself as a kid. That didn't go anywhere in Utah. We are talking here about guys who have been convicted, in courts that have shown themselves to be basically sympathetic to the polygs. One can presume that was because of the evidence, not because of the accusations Flora makes that you don't like to hear.
Been there and done that. It's a waste of time. People who adopt a bleef system compartmentalize their minds. They allow no evidence nor logic, no matter how compelling to cross the mental bleef barrier. It's like a very persistant mental disorder. That's why so many of these creekers will jump off any cliff Warren leads them to.
It's really easy to see Cactus, why those guys all got such light sentences. There was no complaint. Not even an anonymous phone call. Go Figure? The state had to find the "victims" and convince them with a birth certificate for evidence that they were brainwashed, miserable, unhappy, abused, and had no idea how good life could be, and if they put "Father" in jail for it then somehow that would fix it for them, and make their world a better place. And of course they had Flora and Carolyn to verify it all; insiders, xFLDS members, who know how it really is.
Gosh .. if only a few of those gooftroop Mormon's would only listen to you. You could explain to them that their testimony is a fraud.
If there was no complaint, then why were they convicted? I'm not talking about people who've been accused. I'm talking about Dale Barlow, who I guess pled no contest, which is sort of like a soft guilty plea. or another was Rodney Holm, where thee was an actual complainant. He got a year of work release, which is very light for the crime.
I'm no legal scholar, Say. But seems to me, if people hear a bang and come running and find a dead guy laying shot and I'm standing there with a smoking gun, what you are saying is I can get away with it because he won't be filing a complaint. I don't think it works that way because the state can prosecute if they can prove a crime took place, whether the victim complains or not.
| QUOTE |
| And of course they had Flora and Carolyn to verify it all; insiders, xFLDS members, who know how it really is. |
I can see you'd like to blame all this on Flora, but as far as I know she's never testified in any case except when she was abused herself as a kid. That didn't go anywhere in Utah. We are talking here about guys who have been convicted, in courts that have shown themselves to be basically sympathetic to the polygs. One can presume that was because of the evidence, not because of the accusations Flora makes that you don't like to hear.
| QUOTE |
| Gosh .. if only a few of those gooftroop Mormon's would only listen to you. You could explain to them that their testimony is a fraud. |
Been there and done that. It's a waste of time. People who adopt a bleef system compartmentalize their minds. They allow no evidence nor logic, no matter how compelling to cross the mental bleef barrier. It's like a very persistant mental disorder. That's why so many of these creekers will jump off any cliff Warren leads them to.
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ Apr 13 2008, 05:01 PM) |
| To me Sayit was saying , he'd really like to have a decent conversation about polygamy , but he cant , its not that he hasn't tried but you've already made up your mind he's wrong no matter what he was to say , so whats the use in trying anymore . He is willing to give up trying , maybe he has . But I really dont think he wants too . Yup ol Sayit seems pretty frustrated and in allot of ways I dont blame him ,not that is crap dont stink also , but if you bring up about him going to far He'll back down . |
Well, no, Say didn't understand, and apparently you don't either, that I wasn't talking about pre-judging anyone. I was talking about cases in the past where the guy was accused, tried, and convicted in court. It isn't a matter of me speculating about his guilt, that's been established. Maybe I'm having a problem here speaking plain.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 13 2008, 07:24 PM) |
| Well, no, Say didn't understand, and apparently you don't either, that I wasn't talking about pre-judging anyone. I was talking about cases in the past where the guy was accused, tried, and convicted in court. It isn't a matter of me speculating about his guilt, that's been established. Maybe I'm having a problem here speaking plain. |
Yeah you are having a problem speaking plain. I went back to see if I'd really misunderstood... I don't think so.
"this guy who is the husband of the complainant... aint the guy who is the husband... yet? For you to say that like he is, is pre judging. And so I said, last week maybe you could say that, becuase we didn't know. But now after all the press on it.. no way.
It's more of the same ol shit. An allegation is good enough. Good enough for you; good enough for all the activists, and good enough for Texas, and good enough for the media.
Interesting that Flora is not talking to the press. Very interesting. That's a first. Hopefully just an allegation against her will be good enough too.
But it sounds like what you are saying now is, "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but what you don't realize is that what I said is not what I meant" You've heard that old classic, Right? I always thought it was a joke.. but nope.. now you are saying it seriously.
| QUOTE (bbgae @ Apr 13 2008, 04:42 PM) |
| The only thing I can think of, Yankie, is that the children are pure and since the people in Zion are supposed to be pure, they might be sent there to remain pure while they grow up in preparation? for the Second Coming of Christ? There are numerous scriptures about this. In the Bible, "Let the little children come", "And the lion shall lay down with the lamb and a little children shall lead them", "Ye must come unto to the Lord with a pure heart like unto a little child". I think I may have messed up the wording in some of the quotes and I can't tell you the exact references, but I 'm a little rusty. I completely agree with you. |
Hey BBgae, maybe you haven't seen this video , Kinda thought you may if not .
http://deseretnews.com/video/1,5563,325,00.html
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 13 2008, 07:24 PM) |
| Maybe I'm having a problem here speaking plain. |
No, You're speaking plainly , always have , The Jokes on me I guess.
QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 13 2008, 07:19 PM)
If there was no complaint, then why were they convicted? I'm not talking about people who've been accused. I'm talking about Dale Barlow, who I guess pled no contest, which is sort of like a soft guilty plea. or another was Rodney Holm, where thee was an actual complainant. He got a year of work release, which is very light for the crime.
We are going in logic loops again... as usual.
Anything anyone says just gives you another chance to run your routine again like these factoids were all actual facts.
No matter what you may think, these laws are still being interpreted, defined, re-defined, reworked, tested, legislated, litigated, mitigated, and agitated. And even the process of prosecuting them has (and is) stretching the envelope. It was a "soft plea" because it was a "soft crime"... and soft sentence becuase there was a lot of shit in the game about even getting them into court in the first place. They really needed a witness ( victim) ... bad, if you can recall. Nothing but a birth certificate was pretty damn flimsy, and they knew they were "testing the law" with it.
But I realize that you and Flora are a lot smarter than any AG or any Judge.
Ok , for the sake of clarification, I say Flora, but I really see her as a representative of a group.. so it's kind of a flora et al, that goes without saying. Not always that I see her as personally responsible for all the lies the public sucks up. ( I blame you for all that too .. lol ) She's pretty good a repeating them all any chance she gets though. But this crusading contingency is responsible for a lot of the publics perception. All you need to do is read some of the news article comments to see how bigoted, ignorant, and predjudiced the fickle minded public is. Flora (et.al) play all these lamebrains like a fiddle. And you, my friend, have even been strummed a little as well.... you have jumped off any cliff that Flora lead you to.
We are going in logic loops again... as usual.
Anything anyone says just gives you another chance to run your routine again like these factoids were all actual facts.
No matter what you may think, these laws are still being interpreted, defined, re-defined, reworked, tested, legislated, litigated, mitigated, and agitated. And even the process of prosecuting them has (and is) stretching the envelope. It was a "soft plea" because it was a "soft crime"... and soft sentence becuase there was a lot of shit in the game about even getting them into court in the first place. They really needed a witness ( victim) ... bad, if you can recall. Nothing but a birth certificate was pretty damn flimsy, and they knew they were "testing the law" with it.
But I realize that you and Flora are a lot smarter than any AG or any Judge.
| QUOTE |
| I can see you'd like to blame all this on Flora, but as far as I know she's never testified in any case except when she was abused herself as a kid. That didn't go anywhere in Utah. We are talking here about guys who have been convicted, in courts that have shown themselves to be basically sympathetic to the polygs. One can presume that was because of the evidence, not because of the accusations Flora makes that you don't like to hear. |
Ok , for the sake of clarification, I say Flora, but I really see her as a representative of a group.. so it's kind of a flora et al, that goes without saying. Not always that I see her as personally responsible for all the lies the public sucks up. ( I blame you for all that too .. lol ) She's pretty good a repeating them all any chance she gets though. But this crusading contingency is responsible for a lot of the publics perception. All you need to do is read some of the news article comments to see how bigoted, ignorant, and predjudiced the fickle minded public is. Flora (et.al) play all these lamebrains like a fiddle. And you, my friend, have even been strummed a little as well.... you have jumped off any cliff that Flora lead you to.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 13 2008, 09:18 PM) |
| Interesting that Flora is not talking to the press. Very interesting. That's a first. Hopefully just an allegation against her will be good enough too. |
Flora has been all over the press. She was on CNN and several others, but then she stopped because she was getting worn out with it.
Sigh. Look, in the eyes of the law, you are guilty when you are found guilty. If you think you've been railroaded, that doesn't carry any weight. Once you've been found guilty all that's left is for the judge to pass sentence. And what I'm saying is what I've seen is that polygs who've been found guilty are getting lighter sentences than other people.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 13 2008, 10:21 PM) |
| But I realize that you and Flora are a lot smarter than any AG or any Judge. Ok , for the sake of clarification, I say Flora, but I really see her as a representative of a group.. so it's kind of a flora et al, that goes without saying. Not always that I see her as personally responsible for all the lies the public sucks up. ( I blame you for all that too .. lol ) She's pretty good a repeating them all any chance she gets though. But this crusading contingency is responsible for a lot of the publics perception. All you need to do is read some of the news article comments to see how bigoted, ignorant, and predjudiced the fickle minded public is. Flora (et.al) play all these lamebrains like a fiddle. And you, my friend, have even been strummed a little as well.... you have jumped off any cliff that Flora lead you to. |
So, if I understand the situation, there are 15 year old girls out there who are pregnant and it's MY fault. Dammit! I missed the fun but I get the blame. Story of my life.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ Apr 14 2008, 08:14 AM) |
| So, if I understand the situation, there are 15 year old girls out there who are pregnant and it's MY fault. Dammit! I missed the fun but I get the blame. Story of my life. |
Cactus , dont run for any public office or JR. High class president .
| QUOTE (bbgae @ Apr 13 2008, 02:47 AM) |
| Even if you did bore me with global warming. |
You cut me to the quick there, bbgae. That's my flat out best prose on that thread, and you find it boring?
Still, that you have some tolerance for four grumpy geezers, I take a great deal of encouragement in that.
Yeah, Dale Barlow. It was his young wife who called in the complaint. Neither she nor he have been seen hide nor hair of since. I see there's a warrant out for his arrest now.
Seems like the stance Cactus made years back with respect to another of the child brides is reasonalbe here too. Let her come forth and be allowed to speak freely that she's not being held against her will and then nobody will prevent them from living "the principle". I guess we oughtn't to go jumping to conclusions here, but one has wonder why Barlow and his wife have just up and vamoosed from the scene? What is any reasonabble person to suspect but that he has something to hide?
Disclaimer: Flora Jessop has played no role whatsoever in my thoughts above. I've been led to no cliff by her and told to jump off it. Others may suggest I do that, but Flora hasn't.
Seems like the stance Cactus made years back with respect to another of the child brides is reasonalbe here too. Let her come forth and be allowed to speak freely that she's not being held against her will and then nobody will prevent them from living "the principle". I guess we oughtn't to go jumping to conclusions here, but one has wonder why Barlow and his wife have just up and vamoosed from the scene? What is any reasonabble person to suspect but that he has something to hide?
Disclaimer: Flora Jessop has played no role whatsoever in my thoughts above. I've been led to no cliff by her and told to jump off it. Others may suggest I do that, but Flora hasn't.
Thank you for the video clip, Yankie. I did not know about that. I recognize the people in there. The first two women are married to Warren. The second woman is my third cousin. I went to school with her. The man is a brother to the first woman. Both of them are Merill Jessop's children.
I took a look at the list of people they have posted on the Texas blog and recognized a few of the names. An old school teacher, an old friend. And a few others.
According to the Tribune, Flora contacted the CPS about a girl who was wanting to leave. They were in town a week, I heard and never found the girl.
I took a look at the list of people they have posted on the Texas blog and recognized a few of the names. An old school teacher, an old friend. And a few others.
According to the Tribune, Flora contacted the CPS about a girl who was wanting to leave. They were in town a week, I heard and never found the girl.
| QUOTE |
| You cut me to the quick there, bbgae. That's my flat out best prose on that thread, and you find it boring? Still, that you have some tolerance for four grumpy geezers, I take a great deal of encouragement in that. |
Sorry. I stayed as long as I could. I agree it was one of the better topics. That's probably why it lasted so long. I just got tired of rephrasing the same argument over and over. I love you guys though. You will probably never be rid of me entirely. And I agree that the prose was good.
Can't you see it Chaster, this Koolaid you swigged:
| QUOTE |
| Yeah, Dale Barlow. It was his young wife who called in the complaint. Neither she nor he have been seen hide nor hair of since. I see there's a warrant out for his arrest now. |
is in direct contradiction to this denial of this,
QUOTE
Disclaimer: Flora Jessop has played no role whatsoever in my thoughts above. I've been led to no cliff by her and told to jump off it. Others may suggest I do that, but Flora hasn't.
... see CNN is playing this right now on Nancy Grace like he is guilty of this accusation. See how it works. That's how flora plays a roll "whatsoever" in your thoughts.
| QUOTE |
| Seems like the stance Cactus made years back with respect to another of the child brides is reasonalbe here too. Let her come forth and be allowed to speak freely that she's not being held against her will and then nobody will prevent them from living "the principle". I guess we oughtn't to go jumping to conclusions here, but one has wonder why Barlow and his wife have just up and vamoosed from the scene? What is any reasonabble person to suspect but that he has something to hide? |
here again... vamoosed? guilty until proven innocent. He didn't go anywhere, and she doesn't seem to exist?
Trying to logic with you people is an exercise in futility. Brainwashed, bro, you've been brainwashed probably by your big brother, quit trying to deny it. lol
QUOTE (bbgae @ Apr 14 2008, 05:25 PM)
Thank you for the video clip, Yankie. I did not know about that. I recognize the people in there. The first two women are married to Warren. The second woman is my third cousin. I went to school with her. The man is a brother to the first woman. Both of them are Merill Jessop's children.
I took a look at the list of people they have posted on the Texas blog and recognized a few of the names. An old school teacher, an old friend. And a few others.
According to the Tribune, Flora contacted the CPS about a girl who was wanting to leave. They were in town a week, I heard and never found the girl.
Sorry. I stayed as long as I could. I agree it was one of the better topics. That's probably why it lasted so long. I just got tired of rephrasing the same argument over and over. I love you guys though. You will probably never be rid of me entirely. And I agree that the prose was good.
Yeah I kinda guessed the fellow was a Jessop , Good ol Merril, now there's one to keep a eye on . LOL , I knew Merril and I guess his oldest boy Fred , this guy looks familiar but I'm not certain .
No , I dont think its quite like this video makes it out to be , but it gives you a Idea what the future will sound like I kinda think . But I do think these people love their children and in their minds they are not evil people, just too convinced they are right is what comes to my mind .
By the Way BBgae , I'm starting a new ad campaign ," Down with boring Global Warming , Yup I'm going hi-tech , ya need to check it out .
I took a look at the list of people they have posted on the Texas blog and recognized a few of the names. An old school teacher, an old friend. And a few others.
According to the Tribune, Flora contacted the CPS about a girl who was wanting to leave. They were in town a week, I heard and never found the girl.
Sorry. I stayed as long as I could. I agree it was one of the better topics. That's probably why it lasted so long. I just got tired of rephrasing the same argument over and over. I love you guys though. You will probably never be rid of me entirely. And I agree that the prose was good.
| QUOTE |
| Both of them are Merill Jessop's children. |
Yeah I kinda guessed the fellow was a Jessop , Good ol Merril, now there's one to keep a eye on . LOL , I knew Merril and I guess his oldest boy Fred , this guy looks familiar but I'm not certain .
No , I dont think its quite like this video makes it out to be , but it gives you a Idea what the future will sound like I kinda think . But I do think these people love their children and in their minds they are not evil people, just too convinced they are right is what comes to my mind .
By the Way BBgae , I'm starting a new ad campaign ," Down with boring Global Warming , Yup I'm going hi-tech , ya need to check it out .
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ Apr 15 2008, 12:52 AM) |
| Can't you see it Chaster, this Koolaid you swigged: is in direct contradiction to this denial of this, ... see CNN is playing this right now on Nancy Grace like he is guilty of this accusation. See how it works. That's how flora plays a roll "whatsoever" in your thoughts. here again... vamoosed? guilty until proven innocent. He didn't go anywhere, and she doesn't seem to exist? Trying to logic with you people is an exercise in futility. Brainwashed, bro, you've been brainwashed probably by your big brother, quit trying to deny it. lol |
So, Say. You're saying that the phone call and the Dale Barlow story, that was all cooked up by Flora Jessop?
bbgae, what's your take on whether there's sexual abuse of minors going on within the FLDS? Do you think there's any call for intervention into the FLDS, or should society back off?
Just want to say hi to everyone in this discussion. I am really glad this board is still here even if it doesn't seem to get that much action these days. Maybe now that Jim figured out the new participant access some more familiar names will pop up now & again. I mostly just read along. I don't always feel I have things to say about subjects I don't know so much about. I really appreciate being able to listen in on y'all's dialog though.