Understood, Jim.

Never liked you much, either.

Sheessh, now what?

Well John, I suppose I was a tad hard on you. Thing is, the way I read it is you are making every polyg rationalization and apology in the books. It's constant, "How could Texas take lil Children out of the loving arms of their mothers?" and never one word about "How could these old geezers harvest 13 year old girls?". You talk about how you were abused in that environment and were glad to get the hell out, then in the same breath you want to send these girls back so they can resume where they left off. I find your posts to be irrational and very one sided.

I'm not out to drive you off but if you are going to fill these pages with this polyg apologetic pap, then I'm going to respond against it. Obviously you have a lot of mental baggage to deal with. I'd say just extend to others the opportunity you had of leaving. You were a boy, when you left they were glad to see you go. These girls don't get that chance. They've been locked in there at that prison compound. If that's what they like, they'll drift back after they're 18. If it's not what they'd like for their life, hey, this country is committed to allowing people to be what they can be, not someones stupid little pet breeding device.

I don't know. They have to deal with the wee little problem that if the parentage can be established beyond a doubt, many of the daddy's are prison bound.

I heard me a juicy rumor today. I heard the polyg guys went to a shelter where the women are and tried to throw their weight around. The shelter folks called the cops and some of the polyg men are in jail for trespass. At least, that's what I heard.

This socialistic insidious encroachment of immorality in the name of morality and morphing the social moray into anything goes as long as we can be fascists "for the children" is the very hypocrisy that i keep objecting to.

We get this version of "normal" that is really just the secular religion of the Hypocritical Harpies from Hell whose great leadership is a bunch of divorcee's in their midlife crisis, on Prozac, and Universal HealthCare. (ok that was a bit of a rant, but I do resent their hijacking the moral high ground here)

But Fundamentalist polygamy does not belong on this amoral alternate lifestyle list. I take umbrage with that. The related problems that engender public outrage and legal entanglements are a departure from the fundamentals of the religion. And the people who do that, depart from the fundamentals, are.. stupid or criminal. Just like Laude said long ago. But the problem is that because of people like her, who don't tell the truth more often than they do, there are too many people, inside and out, who can't seem to tell the difference now.

I also think that all this exegesis about believing whatever you want as long as you don't do any of it as the definition of "religion" is too phony for description. It' just another subtle attempt to redefine "faith" as "myth"... when faith really means believing what is true. That is what religion is all about, and these philosophical, academic, anthropological permutations are tangents... away from the truth that establishes something as a religion instead of a "dangerous" cult.

So we are not saying the same thing. Freedom of religion is just the Mormon article of faith says, we claim the privelige of worshiping almighty God according the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege.

I do agree that even freedom of religion does not give people the right to break the law. And even IF the law is unconstitutional, they will still have to break it at their own risk. One of the best litmus tests for an un-constitutional law is that it will be very difficult, of not impossible to enforce if they can at all, it won't be done without discrimination.

What they have done with polygamy (as an "illegal" religious tenet) is like passing a law that if you are under 30, you have to travel 20 miles under the speed limit, and if you are over 50 you cannot use the passing lane. It would be discriminatory, impossible to enforce equally, and create a whole class of "stupid or criminal" people we could all learn to hate if their ex-wives wrote enough expose books about them..and told us how they always arrogantly broke those laws and used a cellphone at the same time to boot, and most likely they had a kid in the car that should have been in a car seat, and they always deny it, ask these skeevy creepy people yourself.. you'll see.. and.. and.. not only that, if you can believe this... they are usually (like 52.4% of the time and I have statistics to prove it.. right here on the internet) on their way to spend food stamps, so you are paying for "most" of it. It's a horrible example to be setting for children, and something should be done about it.

You know what I take umbrage to is being called immoral by people who believe old men have a right to screw 13 year olds. I'm not saying you beleive that or do that, Say, but that is something that irks me about all this. Remember when old Ruth would rail on calling me every filthy vile evil thing she could think of and I know that in my life I haven't done a hundredth of the evil that Warren or his henchmen have done.

I know each of us has a different fundamental basis for our concept of morality. For me it's victimization. I give zero weight to any scripture. I just say we should each treat each other with respect. We should help each other out along the way. That is the fundamental idea that my sense of morality flows from. So when I hear of gay guys freely entering into - well - each other, or of a swinging couple who have each freely agreed that is what they want to do, hey, that's their life. There is no victimization.

What I see around me in the big city is most people are pretty nice. None are perfect, but we mostly get along pretty good because most of us are decent folks most of the time. You'd be hard pressed to find as much evil anywhere in America as you have at CC.

From my moral perspective, when I hear of a guy using religion to manipulate and control people so he can have sex with teen agers and keep them ignorant and isolated, preventing them from even knowing what they might want, I see an utterly immoral person.

I know people from a more religious framework are taught to look for morality from authority. Their fundamental basis for morality stems from commandments. This makes them vulnerable to manipulation from self appointed religious authorities. In my view that is a low order of morality but it's the type that most religious folks adhere to.

Ya Cactus, that is what you are saying; that I believe this. It has that innocuous little disclaimer, but the implication is crystal clear, and if not directly, then indirectly because, "you protect, defend, enable, condone, preach".. however you want to spin it. Allegations are free.. yanno? And after all the end justifies the means.. so lets flush this bullshit out and deal with it finally, once and for all. That is what you are saying... over and over every chance you get.

That makes sense as a polemic, but I think what you are overlooking in all this the way the "culture" gets a big hot branding iron on the ass for something a few of these "immoral" people do. The arguement does go a lot deeper if you want to hijack the moral highground, but on the surface, which as deep as most people are even able to go, you don't want to be branded as a potential serial killer because Ted Bundy was from your hometown. And should they go take Chasters kids becuase someone has accused his "Big Brother" of being a pervert in an anonymous phone call.

I know.. you resent me even writing that in a hypothetical paragraph on a dumb ass blog.. And you should. Especially if you are being implicated as "guilty until proven innocent". Not only that, you can't even deny it, because everyone knows, because they read it in the newspaper, you never tell the truth about anything anyways. That's what you aren't getting about all this. These damned insidious false accusations that blanket an entire culture because some damn lying dissident has a wild hair, and wants all their problems to be someone else's fault. And sure enough, some pervert does something stupid, and suddenly ALL their other lies become "valid" by default.

You can say things with impunity for only one reason. You don't know what you are talking about. If you did then some of the things you say, about the MO's and the FLDS would be downright libel, that is the media's culpability, not to mention the moral responsibility, and that isn't even getting into my opinon of how damn outright blasphemous it is, and the price that will cost.

But hell no.. no one should have the audacity to cast any moral aspersions on you, or any of your swinger friends or their gay relatives or prostitute sisters.. or whatthehellever liberal thing you think is acceptable for consenting adults. How could anyone be that judgmental without being a damn insensitive wacko, No way, that is only a privilege of the more enlightened "mainstream" or better still, xMO's and xPligs who have the real "inside" scoop.

But see, the problem isn't here with you and me arguing like a couple know it alls, the problem is that CPS (the State, under color of law) does this same forced morality and calls it "enforcing the law".. when what is really happening is that they are establishing their fascism. They don't really have a better idea at all. That is working for you .. at the moment, but the price for it will so much higher than anyone can imagine yet.

Say, I don't do subtle. I don't have any reason to believe you are a pedophile so before I say that the FLDS mass produces pedophiles, I do want to disclaimer it by saying I'm not pointing that at you. If you choose to think I mean something else that is your problem.

Jim,

Did your mother or father every beat you? I mean, maybe for stealing, lying, or something like that.

Were you pissed? Did you want to get out of the house?

I know I slam some of the teachings, and I know I slam my dad, but it is my home too. I can slam it, you CAN'T.

You know, the 13 years old thing . . . . I'd heard of it, but never knew anyone, so it couldn't have been that common.

When I was in Kentucky a couple of years ago, one of the job site workers were bragging about how his rich friend had a 12 years girl friend. "I don't approve" he said, "but still, it pretty cool." There were other stories. I worked with a roadie for the band "The Temptations." He told me stories that made me blush, about how mothers would bring their young daughters back stage (14-18) for good ole fashion groupie sex, or to the after party.

Jim, there is a defiant part of me that would stand up and piss in your wheaties for all I care about what you think of my former home. You know that!!! I've been on the inside and outside and I'm saying you have NO RIGHT to judge these people this way. I'm not saying you can't judge them, but not like this. Old Geezers . . . . .?? It's because they're old that up sets you?

See, I heard that a girl lost her virginity at 12 in Hurricane. . . . and from pretty good sources. Claimed that some circles made it a point to pressure young girls in to sex. . . . . . but not married.

There is a difference between marriage and sex. . . but it's the sex thing that seems to be upsetting everyone. So, yes, I say you don't have a leg to stand on. Just because I get up at the stupidity of some of my former cult members doesn't mean that I want to destory them.

I heard some of Flora's recorded conversation with the hoaxister. I was sad. I felt that Flora was more concerned that this girl was having sex with her "polygamist" father then simply the fact it was her father.

No matter what, I cannot shake the feeling that America is more concerned about that idea the things are being done by "polygamists" then the fact that they are happening. It's the "immorality" cry that offends me, but granted, I know those issues exists.

Ok. Maybe not you personally. I don't' think that you mean something else. (See I can do disclaimers too) I think that you just don't realize what you are actually saying, or how it sounds to people who get the full brunt of these allegations.

You have the advantage, perhaps, of knowing more than just what you read in the newspapers a lot more that most of these over opinionated under informed loud mouths, which I think should make you more careful. But you don't seem to be any less prejudice for some reason. Maybe it's because your "sources" are the same ones where the media gets all it's good stuff?

But the subtle bullcrap that gets run in endless loops on the news comments and blogs like this one and all the others, and all the ignorant bigotry that goes with it runs like that. For starters the label of pedophile is not applicable, it's buzz word exaggeration, tossed into a polemic, and secondly, if it isn't subtle, and not personal then why all this hyperventilation about the "culture of abuse." And why this "pervasive" attitude that somehow in this particular case, the end does justify the means.

Anyone who speaks up for preservation of civil liberties is a polygamy "apologist" and a "pedophile" enabler.

The problem is that allegations = guilty in public mind now. And nobody thinks this same criteria of law enforcement should be applied equally over the entire population, but they sure think Texas is on a roll for discriminating against the pliggers.

Read this article... and then all the comments under it. You'll get some black and white examples of what I'm saying. There probably isn't one single "informed" commenter, but some for and some against and so many mistakes in fact and logic you could never fix them all. Some people get a little bit if it, just a little, going both directions.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274455,00.html

I hesitate to jump in with my on the one hand this and on the other hand, as it tends to piss off my brother, who has come a long way from Republicanism, but hasn’t made the entire journey.

But I think the charge of a “class action” removal of kids from the YFZ, as some liberal types are charging, deserves to be considered.

You might want to keep that in mind, Say. Sometimes, bleeding heart liberals even get exercised about the rights of polygamists.

But I think the intent here isn’t for a class action separation of kids. The raid was a class action action, but what is to follow is for each case to be examined individually. It’s going to be a field day for lawyers. The class action action of the raid itself, though, I think, a reasonable person would have to accept, one, had some justification in reality, and, two, was necessitated by the nature of the YFZ, which is essentially a mighty fortress / prison.

Lawyer is kind of a bad word, as in “It makes me so mad to see miscreants get all lawyered up when the issue is really simply about right and wrong." Except that it never is quite that simple when you get into the nuances of it.

On the other hand, if the state came and took my kid becuase someone has accused his "Big Brother" of being a pervert in an anonymous phone call, first thing I'd haul off and do is get lawyered up. I find me a lawyer with a track record of winning law suits.

Jim,

I'm glad that you clarified your postion. I mean, I understand the FEELING of "they aren't fit to draw breath." But to actually start executing people that abandon their children seems a little harsh.

Balance is good. But if we went around and killed everyone that got a teenager pregnant . . . . I'd be one of the few left alive, I fear and what a lonely world that would be.

If God (Goodness and morality, justice and balance) killed everyone that got a teenage pregnant or abandon they child, I'm sure that none of us would be here at all.

Life is about growth, learning, and improving. In the scope of things, I don't feel like this FLDS have really been given a fair chance, not considering the same pride, ego, and self-righteousness that all of us like to use. If someone came into Chaster's house and said, "Environmentalists are evil and should be destroyed" how would you react? You would resist and fight back, even though they were right.

The point is, no one likes being pushed around. You and Flora think this all about gross old men trying to gets their rocks off, but it goes much deeper then that. These people have a history of being abused by the government, they are angry and bitter and resist any efforts of outsiders to tell them what to believe.

I'm not saying that there isn't blame on both sides of this issue. I know that early Mormons liked to talked, and much of their talk as threatening. . . . such as "we are going to build our temples, get supernatural powers and then rule the world." Sure, that kind of talk upset the locals.

But people have "hated" Mormons from the beginning of . . . . . well; Mormondom. The LDS church tried to focus all of that hate to the polygamy thing and then flushed it. Well, the hate never stopped and likewise the resistance to outside pressure.

Everyone wants to say, "I don't care what consenting adults do behind closed doors. . . . but that isn't true. People hate pligs and they were thrilled to death when Warren Jeffs got into power because he gave them everything they needed to launch a full scale attack.

I'm not saying Pligs are perfect, far from it. But it doesn't matter what they do, they will still be hated. Yes, many of them use their isolation from the law as reasons to disregard it. But the disregard goes both ways.

I've been trying to say, these people are stuck in the past. I have a pretty damn good understanding of abuse and I'm telling you, these people show all the signs and symptoms of it. And I'm not talking about the individuals, persay, but that entire people.

For example: Say that your 2 year old child steals a cookie. You catch her, and you've told her a thousand times not to steal cookies. You're having a bad day, you backhand her across that face. You have very possibly stopped that child's growth in that situation. That child may never mature with concepts of food and how to regulate eating, etc.

Such is the situation with CC. They were hit so hard, emotionally speaking, by our government, it literally stunted their emotional growth as a community. They are stuck at different locations on the time line, in the 1900's, and the 1950's, etc. And they have just slapped again. Last night I heard that 36 of 53 teenage girls were pregnant or had already had children. I wanted to throw up, vomit, toss cookies, and throw pies. I had heard several years back that Warren had done that and the proof is coming out.

These people have been traumized from so many different angles I just want to cry. But I know they will fight to the death to hold on to their faith. I've been out of the faith 14 years and I'll still fight just because of the bitterness passed onto me because of injustices of the American people toward this people. They have rejected us full out, while professing morality that isn't real.

I admit that I feel shame for these people. I am not ashamed of them, I am ashamed FOR them. That they would regress to such a point as to allow and promote the young marriages that rival the 1800's maybe even the 1700's makes me sad. But I do not hold them entirely responsible for this. They had rights that were ignored, walked on, and flat out refused to them which pushed many of them into the emotionally deseparate situations that they are in.

But, that you voice words like, "aren't fit to have kids" tells me you are no better then Warren Jeffs. Sure, you don't have the power, but if you had it, you would just as bad or worse, dictating and laying down the law about who can and who can't exercise the powers of life that God gave them.

I've posted on these boards for years about how imperfect these people are, yet they deserve want every other American does. And the only reason I defend them is the sins of the outside stand just as tall and ugly as those on the inside, yet America loves to deny their own faults and weakness and harp of those that won't tow the line with them.

That America believes that it's OK to invade another culture, say Iraq or CC based on false information, and then say, "Oh well, we are here, lets excerise our power anyway," which results in the pain of hundreds and thousands is shameful to me. Almost 40,000 dead because we thought Iraq had WMD's, which we never found.

We have our shame too. . . . . if we would but dare feel it.