Full Version: FLDS WEB SITE
Man, after looking at that website, this seems like such a nightmare. All of those smiling faces. . . . it reminds me of home. I think they should return the kids.
I had a laugh. Playing in the water like that, I remember that sort of thing. Totally dressed and playing in the ponds and streams. Sometimes about 30-40 of us would go into water canyon to hike and swim.
I guess the reason I tell people I wasn't abused is because it really seems like most of it was good times. We would go hiking and swiming, (if you can call floating in pond with milk-jugs tied to your belt "swimming.")
Sure, I got into trouble about once a week, but the rest of it was good times.
However, the reason I have spoken up against certain people and situations is in support of some of my family that doesn't remember it that way. I don't want to undermine their pain . . . . but mine wasn't so bad. I kind of remember it that way it is in the pictures. Laughter, even when working in the gardens and working.
We had a strange sense of humor, but we were always laughing and playing jokes on each other.
I still hate Jeffs. That the anti-polygamy folk think that he is best thing that has happened to polygamy makes me feel angry. Many of them are glad he went nuts, because it gives them an excuse to do this. What he has done is nasty and inexcusable. But what people have done to his follows is much worse.
Jeffs = nasty. CPS = nastier
I had a laugh. Playing in the water like that, I remember that sort of thing. Totally dressed and playing in the ponds and streams. Sometimes about 30-40 of us would go into water canyon to hike and swim.
I guess the reason I tell people I wasn't abused is because it really seems like most of it was good times. We would go hiking and swiming, (if you can call floating in pond with milk-jugs tied to your belt "swimming.")
Sure, I got into trouble about once a week, but the rest of it was good times.
However, the reason I have spoken up against certain people and situations is in support of some of my family that doesn't remember it that way. I don't want to undermine their pain . . . . but mine wasn't so bad. I kind of remember it that way it is in the pictures. Laughter, even when working in the gardens and working.
We had a strange sense of humor, but we were always laughing and playing jokes on each other.
I still hate Jeffs. That the anti-polygamy folk think that he is best thing that has happened to polygamy makes me feel angry. Many of them are glad he went nuts, because it gives them an excuse to do this. What he has done is nasty and inexcusable. But what people have done to his follows is much worse.
Jeffs = nasty. CPS = nastier
I hear there some denominations that spinned off of mormonism. I noticed that except for book of mormon, the proclamation of beliefs sounds a lot like Pentacostal.
| QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ Apr 28 2008, 08:05 AM) |
| Jeffs = nasty. CPS = nastier |
I haven't had time to follow the infinitude of blogs dealing with the raid, but this comment caught my attention.
I will say that where CPS feel like they can judge a person without an honest trial, based on what their "warm fuzzy" tells them is the best interest of the child puts them just as low as Warren, if not lower.
| QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ Apr 28 2008, 03:05 PM) |
| Jeffs = nasty. CPS = nastier |
So how does it ever end?
I gather that Jeffs was orders of magnitude worse than Rulon. What would have followed Jeffs? Couldn't get any worse than Jeffs? Actually, yes, it can get worse even than Jeffs. So how does the pattern of accelerating madness like that ever get disrupted accept by something that is disruptive?
"I don't want to undermine their pain . . . . but mine wasn't so bad. "
You say that your pain wasn't so bad. So let me ask you this then, Greatness, SA. So therefore it's fine for it to continue for others?
Let’s look at it from another perspective for a minute, SAG. I can relate to the ambiguous feelings you have of your upbringing in which there were both good and bad experiences, but let’s put that aside for a moment by considering a similar situation. I see in today’s paper a story “Cult leader wanted sex ‘with 7 virgins’”. In 2000 this character in his sixties who calls himself “Michael” and his followers in the“Lord Our Righteousness Church” set up a compound in New Mexico. So one day he up and announces to his following that “God told me to sleep with 7 virgins.” Oh, he didn’t want to do it, but what could he do? What, you’re going to say no to the Lord? Some of the followers left, but here’s the rub; it rather tore a riff in families. This one couple took their family of two girls and one boy out, but one of the daughters returned to the compound. “Healed,” as she had been renamed by Michael, claims “Michael did not molest me, and my laying with him was not sexual in any way, either.” Well, of course not. It’s all about immaculate conception you see. “Michael sacrificed himself and was willing to look like a pedophile so that I might be bonded inseparably to the Father in Heaven.”
These parents have been working with a real nasty bunch, I tell you, known as the state Children, Youth, and Families Department to try to get their minor daughter from the compound.
I mean doesn’t that just make your blood boil to see the nasty state go trampling over peoples’ religious freedoms like that?
These parents have been working with a real nasty bunch, I tell you, known as the state Children, Youth, and Families Department to try to get their minor daughter from the compound.
I mean doesn’t that just make your blood boil to see the nasty state go trampling over peoples’ religious freedoms like that?
| QUOTE (chaster @ May 4 2008, 11:53 AM) |
| I mean doesn’t that just make your blood boil to see the nasty state go trampling over peoples’ religious freedoms like that? |
What makes your blood boil chasmo, is these insinuations that it is the same thing. However illigitimate you might think their religion is, (I saw that story too) and it may well be, but the difference here is that the action is based on a ligitimate complaint, and not just several years worth of unproven allegations.
The fact that legitimate complaints are hard to come by, and hard to prove, and even sometimes the bad guys get away, still does not justify this kind of an infraction of civil liberties.
It's the prejudice against the culture, not the complaints, that makes this YFZ raid into religious persecution, no matter how they try to spin it otherwise. The abuse accusations can be dealt with legally, without breaking the law in order to enforce it, without creating a whole new class of criminals, and without taking victims as hostages to make your case after the fact.
The law will prevail, and everybody will think that justice has been served. Everything is moved toward the new political correctness. But the reality is that the system was abused and there was a lot of injustice done in the name of justice.
Chaster,
I’m a sucker for truth . . . . I mean, sometimes I think that I have a good point, then someone comes along and they have another truth that sort of contradicts my truth and I feel compelled to abandon my truth. (Lack of confidence thing.)
Yes, things could have gotten worse. Things might have gotten worse. . . . things were definitely getting worse!!!
Me, I find myself pissed at EVERYONE on this matter. You know me, (a little.) I’ve been ranting to everyone that would listen that the states would not stand by as these people abandoned their children and continued to marry off these young girls in waves. I even said, that the state would find an excuse to come in and take them. . . ., But it doesn’t mean that I think it was right.
There are a lot of things that could have happened, that could have avoided this. Yes, the FLDS were, are, and probably intending to break the law. But when a nation decides to ignore you for 120 years because they fail every time they try to crush you, a certain lack of respect develops. . . . if even just because they are losers.
America has been immature about this. I was at a party yesterday and this subject came up. One old man was going on about “something not right about those people,” even though half of us knew that he had had a child outside of wedlock and that several members of the family may or may not be full blood.
Now everyone wants to say, “this is about the children, not the religion.” What a crock!! If this was about the children, where was CPS when I was getting beat? If it is about the children, why now is there imminent danger and not 20, 30, or even 100 years ago? CPS could have saved a couple of stripes off my hide, but it wasn’t about me, it was about the fact they couldn’t have EVERY THING their way.
Flora has been knocking at their door for years. And for the little I know of her story, when she went to the authorities for help, they refused her. Not the CC cronies, but full fledged judges and representatives of the people. Why didn’t they come in and investigate her situation?
The more and more that I think about what I could have had and didn’t, I get more and more pissed at the government. Yes, CPS needs to be there. The idea of “Child Protective Services” is cool. So it is the idea of a Prophet, (if you are into such things.) We (the people of CC and CP) went looking for our American brothers and sisters. We worked to bring their school systems and colleges into our town. We sought to maintain a sense of community while allowing each family to own their property, which would give them access to the justice system if necessary.
But the whole reason the UEP existed in the first place was because the government was trying another “let’s get’em this way.” So they created a trust to protect themselves. The reason for the isolation in the first place was because of the raids and arrests.
Almost every bad situation in those towns could be laid to rest at the feet of immature government. (((Did I just say, “at the feet? Shudder)))
It ends when we all grow up and allow people the freedom they deserve, and the provide the regulation that we pay for. Running in and wiping out the young people of community isn’t regulation, its genocide.
I’m a sucker for truth . . . . I mean, sometimes I think that I have a good point, then someone comes along and they have another truth that sort of contradicts my truth and I feel compelled to abandon my truth. (Lack of confidence thing.)
Yes, things could have gotten worse. Things might have gotten worse. . . . things were definitely getting worse!!!
Me, I find myself pissed at EVERYONE on this matter. You know me, (a little.) I’ve been ranting to everyone that would listen that the states would not stand by as these people abandoned their children and continued to marry off these young girls in waves. I even said, that the state would find an excuse to come in and take them. . . ., But it doesn’t mean that I think it was right.
There are a lot of things that could have happened, that could have avoided this. Yes, the FLDS were, are, and probably intending to break the law. But when a nation decides to ignore you for 120 years because they fail every time they try to crush you, a certain lack of respect develops. . . . if even just because they are losers.
America has been immature about this. I was at a party yesterday and this subject came up. One old man was going on about “something not right about those people,” even though half of us knew that he had had a child outside of wedlock and that several members of the family may or may not be full blood.
Now everyone wants to say, “this is about the children, not the religion.” What a crock!! If this was about the children, where was CPS when I was getting beat? If it is about the children, why now is there imminent danger and not 20, 30, or even 100 years ago? CPS could have saved a couple of stripes off my hide, but it wasn’t about me, it was about the fact they couldn’t have EVERY THING their way.
Flora has been knocking at their door for years. And for the little I know of her story, when she went to the authorities for help, they refused her. Not the CC cronies, but full fledged judges and representatives of the people. Why didn’t they come in and investigate her situation?
The more and more that I think about what I could have had and didn’t, I get more and more pissed at the government. Yes, CPS needs to be there. The idea of “Child Protective Services” is cool. So it is the idea of a Prophet, (if you are into such things.) We (the people of CC and CP) went looking for our American brothers and sisters. We worked to bring their school systems and colleges into our town. We sought to maintain a sense of community while allowing each family to own their property, which would give them access to the justice system if necessary.
But the whole reason the UEP existed in the first place was because the government was trying another “let’s get’em this way.” So they created a trust to protect themselves. The reason for the isolation in the first place was because of the raids and arrests.
Almost every bad situation in those towns could be laid to rest at the feet of immature government. (((Did I just say, “at the feet? Shudder)))
It ends when we all grow up and allow people the freedom they deserve, and the provide the regulation that we pay for. Running in and wiping out the young people of community isn’t regulation, its genocide.
One of the beauties of our American culture is for the common man to have justice. In other words, in a court of law, a cased call the Peasant vs. the King could go either way.
If you hurt me, I can sue you for damaged. This simple, but powerful tool does more to keep people in line then anything else. The government does not have to a policeman in your yard all the time, because they know that if something happens to your property, you can sue for justice. They just send someone out to gather the facts.
The people of CC have been deprived of this simple government access. Not because of the children, but because of the religion. Women that might want to leave their husbands had no recourse. They would lose everything. Not just because of the mean husband, but because the government wouldn't have lifted a finger to help her. A woman should be allowed to take an equal share of the assets. A woman should be able to sue for damages, or for assualt. A young girl should be able to call "foul" and have someone listen, and not have the entire community raided over it.
If you hurt me, I can sue you for damaged. This simple, but powerful tool does more to keep people in line then anything else. The government does not have to a policeman in your yard all the time, because they know that if something happens to your property, you can sue for justice. They just send someone out to gather the facts.
The people of CC have been deprived of this simple government access. Not because of the children, but because of the religion. Women that might want to leave their husbands had no recourse. They would lose everything. Not just because of the mean husband, but because the government wouldn't have lifted a finger to help her. A woman should be allowed to take an equal share of the assets. A woman should be able to sue for damages, or for assualt. A young girl should be able to call "foul" and have someone listen, and not have the entire community raided over it.
| QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ May 5 2008, 01:48 PM) |
| Chaster, I’m a sucker for truth . . . . I mean, sometimes I think that I have a good point, then someone comes along and they have another truth that sort of contradicts my truth and I feel compelled to abandon my truth. (Lack of confidence thing.) |
I think it was Neils Bohr, a principle author of the electron, proton, neutron model of the atom, who said something along the lines of
The opposite of a trivial truth is a falsehood.
The opposite of a profound truth is another profound truth.
My guess is that insight came out of the conundrum of that time, is a proton a wave or a particle? There were perfectly valid repeatable experiments to support both of the contradictory views.
So how was it resolved?
Well, it never has been. And yet science hasn't fallen completely apart. It seems to have found that it can live with paradox. Both of the contradictory models are used but in different contexts.
Maybe that's what our culture at large is confronting in this and in other cases, how to live with paradox.
At the same time, this isn't a license to hide behind ambiguity on all questions. Sometimes, things are.
| QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ May 5 2008, 01:48 PM) |
| Almost every bad situation in those towns could be laid to rest at the feet of immature government. |
How do you figure that?
Where's personal responsibility?
Could it be that Jeffs has successfully indoctrinated you to this view, because he's a master con person, who himself was a masterfully conned person?
What about the Lord Our Righteousness Church? Are its problems with the law also mainly about immature government?
| QUOTE (chaster @ May 5 2008, 09:14 AM) |
| How do you figure that? Where's personal responsibility? Could it be that Jeffs has successfully indoctrinated you to this view, because he's a master con person, who himself was a masterfully conned person? What about the Lord Our Righteousness Church? Are its problems with the law also mainly about immature government? |
Personal responsibility is only as good as the person ability to hold it. For example: Say that some crazy general decides to launch a nuclear missile at Russia. Sure, he is responsible and he will have to take responsibility for it, but only to the extent that he can, for his very life may not be enough to pay for his crime. Do you think Russia would care what caused the launch? They would still hold our president, even the entire nation accountable. Where were our safe guards? How did one crazy dude get control so much destructive power? Who was watching him? How did he get the key?
With Warren, it is the same. Sure, we have freedom of religion, just like we have nuclear missiles. And yes, I equate our freedom of religion to being the same as having nukes. Both are very dangerous and need to be watched. I know that if there is some satanic group that believed in sacrificing small children that the government would be in there and shutting it down, religious freedom be damned. Yet satanic groups can exist, as long as they don’t break the law.
If some devil worshipper decided to poison the Las Vegas water supply, sure you can hold him/her responsible to a degree, but where were the safe guards, where were the people responsible for protecting the water supply, etc? And ultimately, who else is responsible? The need for security is as old as groups themselves.
The dangers of these cults were obvious from the beginning, as is any cult or religion. For example (I can’t quote the history exactly) some countries began telling the Catholic Church that unmarried priests were unwelcome because the priests were knocking up all the teenage girls. Personal responsibility can be considered what happened to Warren, but what about happened to the people that followed him? Can this disaster be laid on him? No, because he is not big enough. Did the Mayor of New Orleans take all of the responsibility for that disaster? Did “Brownie” or even President Bush take responsibility for that? No, the whole country felt it.
That my dad decided to take a second wife, that lead to three and eventually 18+ and that it consumed his entire life is a personal responsibility. He paid pretty much every price that could be paid for such choices, even time in jail. He abused some of his children and they hate him for it, again, personal responsibility. But the fact that an entire group of people felt abandoned, betrayed, and hunted by their government because of their faith wasn’t his fault.
I don’t know that much about the Lord Our Righteousness Church. That the man needed 7 virgins. . . . not much the government could have done about that. But if I had heard of such a thing (and was in the governments service) it would have thrown up red flags to me. The whole idea smells of underage girls. Underage crimes can be dealt with.
But in the interest of prevention: I would have made sure that Mr. Ineed7virgins knew that any one of this women could come back and sue him for emotional damages. One of the things that concern me about this issue is that the State is creating victims. In other words, the reasons that they haven’t been able to convict many of these men in the past is because they couldn’t find any willing victims.
In other words, the state, up to now, hasn’t had enough evidence to actually prosecute these men. But again, if someone has been “wronged” the state can then make a case.
The state cannot press charges on its own behalf; it all has to be on behalf the people. But creating victims, people that are normally unwilling to speak up, they opening up the gates for countless other crimes of victims that don’t yet know they are victims yet. What about Catholic women that stay in marriages because the church doesn’t want them to divorce? Or women that had more children then wanted to because birth control was forbidden?
These people are taking responsibility for their lives, in the context to which was provided to them. If the government wants to come in and hold them responsible for “other crimes” then context of responsibility needs to change. Was the government making sure that these women knew their rights? Did the government make any effort to show anyone in these community that if they needed to leave, some sort of justice could be found? What if these women's fear of losing their children was the leverage that Warren's goons used to keep them in place. Who is responsible, and how has the punishment be misrepresented?
| QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ May 5 2008, 06:20 PM) |
| One of the things that concern me about this issue is that the State is creating victims. |
I tend to see it more a case of talented scam artists creating a scarcity of witnesses than the state creating victims.
I mean it's the perfect scam. You indoctrinate some people into believing that it's God's will for you to surrender your integrity, and walla, they've got a license for free and clear sex with anybody they take a fancy to, and, two, witnesses won't testify because they've been indoctrinated into seeing the law as an instrument of Satan. It's the perfect crime.
This isn't intended to be hostile, SAG, but their scam still seems to have a hold of you.
I admit that the scam has its appeal. Your true reality is that you are a shining special chosen being. What, you're not feeling that way about yourself? Well, see, that's not your fault. The world is corrupt and out to rob you of your special calling and reduce you to being nothing special at all. (Oh, that is so true. I'm saying.) It is out to convince you that you are merely mediocre. That mediocrity you're feeling is but an invention of a corrupt world determined to reduce you down to its abyss of degradation. It is but the machinations of a sterile industrialized society that is out to reduce you to an industrial machine. The state will try to tell you that we here are terrible criminals, but that is merely the tactic of Satan to prevent you from becoming truly free from Satan's bondage.
Therefore, be thee apart. Come follow me and realize your true potential.
And once you fall for that, they have got you by the short hairs.
The state, SAG, really would just love to not touch these cases with a ten foot pole. It's not a feather in the cap of the state to get involved in these cases. The scammers know this and take full advantage of it.
Scam!!!??? LOL Oh, come on, chaster. At some level, everything is a scam. I mean, my mother playing airplane with my baby food so that I would take another bite was a scam.
Voting for our leaders . . . . that is a scam.
What I disagree with is the motive. I mean, any leader has to have leadership skills, which is convince people to follow them. But what is so offensive about your attempts to help is that you want to take every thing “I BELIEVE IN" and call it a scam, but lets not talk about the scams that you have suckered into.
Who is say what isn’t a scam? I mean, look at how herd animals live, most of them are polygamist, where the toughest bull gets the doe. What if us trying to make it fair where all guys at least get a chance at a mate isn’t a scam? What if life meant for the toughest roaster to have the chicks?
We have bent every rule known to creation. Everything we have is about setting up some scam or other to change the way things are. Democracy is a scam to make everyone believe that the majority is right.
Yes, I felt scammed when I was in the cult. . . . but far less there then when I stepped out here. I go to work 5 days a week and work for someone else that has convinced that in order to live, I have to slave for them. If I don’t, if I miss too many days. . . . they’ll take my home. If I wanted to exercise my freedom and go fishing on a Monday, I’d be fired and possibly loose my home.
If I decide to exercise my love on someone else, the court system would probably take everything I own and give it to my wife.
I don’t take anymore offense at your words then I ever have. It is just that you outsiders think you are so much better then us. . . . and you hate the idea that we think we are better then you. . . . when it so obviously true that we are better then you. (JK)
I wish you guys would consider the whole “cult” thing. America is just as dumb as us pligs when it comes to suckering into things. I mean, how do you think Bush suckered us into this war? He had us convinced there were WMD’s, that we were in imminent danger. He had vague pictures, shady reports, and a trustworthy face (Colin Powell) telling us the lies.
It’s the same ole scam. . . . but I honestly believe that these “scammers” believe their own lies more then your average Senator.
Voting for our leaders . . . . that is a scam.
What I disagree with is the motive. I mean, any leader has to have leadership skills, which is convince people to follow them. But what is so offensive about your attempts to help is that you want to take every thing “I BELIEVE IN" and call it a scam, but lets not talk about the scams that you have suckered into.
Who is say what isn’t a scam? I mean, look at how herd animals live, most of them are polygamist, where the toughest bull gets the doe. What if us trying to make it fair where all guys at least get a chance at a mate isn’t a scam? What if life meant for the toughest roaster to have the chicks?
We have bent every rule known to creation. Everything we have is about setting up some scam or other to change the way things are. Democracy is a scam to make everyone believe that the majority is right.
Yes, I felt scammed when I was in the cult. . . . but far less there then when I stepped out here. I go to work 5 days a week and work for someone else that has convinced that in order to live, I have to slave for them. If I don’t, if I miss too many days. . . . they’ll take my home. If I wanted to exercise my freedom and go fishing on a Monday, I’d be fired and possibly loose my home.
If I decide to exercise my love on someone else, the court system would probably take everything I own and give it to my wife.
I don’t take anymore offense at your words then I ever have. It is just that you outsiders think you are so much better then us. . . . and you hate the idea that we think we are better then you. . . . when it so obviously true that we are better then you. (JK)
I wish you guys would consider the whole “cult” thing. America is just as dumb as us pligs when it comes to suckering into things. I mean, how do you think Bush suckered us into this war? He had us convinced there were WMD’s, that we were in imminent danger. He had vague pictures, shady reports, and a trustworthy face (Colin Powell) telling us the lies.
It’s the same ole scam. . . . but I honestly believe that these “scammers” believe their own lies more then your average Senator.
Scam!!!??? LOL Oh, come on, chaster. At some level, everything is a scam. I mean, my mother playing airplane with my baby food so that I would take another bite was a scam.
Well, true, I guess. You can't prove that anything is for real. Nobody knows anything for sure. It's all ambiguity.
It's funny how I'm hearing that a lot from people who just moments before were saying that moral relativatism is the work of the devil. The bible, I tell you! is The True Unambiguous Word of The Lord. Doubters must die.
And, now suddenly, it's nobody knows anything for sure. It's all one big huge cosmic cloud of ambiguity.
Kind of makes you wonder what sort of shenanigans have been going on within that cloud of ambiguity.
Course, this isn’t to suggest that all founders of all religions are established by sexual predators. Just because a few bad eggs see this as the perfect cover for sexual predation doesn't mean that all founders of religions are sexual predators.
It raises the question, though, of how do you know a good one from a bad one?
The answer I was raised on is that you pray and then you just "know". There's some appeal to that still, but to my mind, experience just keeps disproving that notion.
The basic problem of vetting leadership, of course, goes beyond religion to society at large. The problem has never been solved satisfactorily. The best we’ve come up with so far is a system of checks and balances and continual scrutiny on leadership. So far, the promise that leadership can be based on something higher, something more spiritual, some way you can just “know” that here is a righteous individual you can trust with power so that you’d never have to question his authority ever again, I think the hope of finding that is about equivalent to coming up with a perpetual motion machine. It’s just against the law, I’m telling you. I’m talking about the laws of thermodynamics.
Well, true, I guess. You can't prove that anything is for real. Nobody knows anything for sure. It's all ambiguity.
It's funny how I'm hearing that a lot from people who just moments before were saying that moral relativatism is the work of the devil. The bible, I tell you! is The True Unambiguous Word of The Lord. Doubters must die.
And, now suddenly, it's nobody knows anything for sure. It's all one big huge cosmic cloud of ambiguity.
Kind of makes you wonder what sort of shenanigans have been going on within that cloud of ambiguity.
Course, this isn’t to suggest that all founders of all religions are established by sexual predators. Just because a few bad eggs see this as the perfect cover for sexual predation doesn't mean that all founders of religions are sexual predators.
It raises the question, though, of how do you know a good one from a bad one?
The answer I was raised on is that you pray and then you just "know". There's some appeal to that still, but to my mind, experience just keeps disproving that notion.
The basic problem of vetting leadership, of course, goes beyond religion to society at large. The problem has never been solved satisfactorily. The best we’ve come up with so far is a system of checks and balances and continual scrutiny on leadership. So far, the promise that leadership can be based on something higher, something more spiritual, some way you can just “know” that here is a righteous individual you can trust with power so that you’d never have to question his authority ever again, I think the hope of finding that is about equivalent to coming up with a perpetual motion machine. It’s just against the law, I’m telling you. I’m talking about the laws of thermodynamics.
| QUOTE (chaster @ May 6 2008, 11:35 AM) |
| So far, the promise that leadership can be based on something higher, something more spiritual, some way you can just “know” that here is a righteous individual you can trust with power so that you’d never have to question his authority ever again, I think the hope of finding that is about equivalent to coming up with a perpetual motion machine. It’s just against the law, I’m telling you. I’m talking about the laws of thermodynamics. |
Yeah, that doesn't mean we quit looking. I mean, seriously, at some level of reality is the power of self motivation. If it is against the laws, you find different laws. Pligs have been doing it for years. Sure, it upsets those that say it cannot be done, but you have to get over that.
The truth be told, chaster, there are a lot of things that upset me about the FLDS. But what if you came across a wacky group of scientist that were trying to develop a perpetual motion machine? What if they were trying every wacky trick in the book, and the only way they could exist as a community was to tell themselves that the world was "wrong." Would you launch yourself into a mission to save them?
What if you found some prevs among them (we know that all scienists are prevs), would try to shut down the whole group because you just knew the only reasons any could believe in perpetual motion was for the sex?
I'm telling, you have misjudged our motive.
Maybe what the Pligs are trying to do is impossible. But maybe what they will come up with instead could be helpful.
But I'm all for regulation . . . .as long as it is just and equal.
I’m not saying that the buying and selling of perpetual motion machines is a matter of concern for the state. Ordinarily, the contract of America is, you’re free to buy and sell perpetual motion machines all you like, but when the product fails to live up to the promise, you’re on your own. That’s the contract of America.
Where it gets tricky is where people were coerced into the contract or incorporated into it unknowingly or against their will. Then, sometimes the state is obliged to interfere. That’s how I see the role of the state in cases like this. Ideally, the state are really more referees than managers or dictators of the economy.
Kind of similar to the meltdown of the subprime market, which was a kind of the wild west of risk taking. I think you need a wild west in your economy. You need both a stade conservative banking system with a safety net and you also need a place where people can take big risks but without a safety net. The problem was, too many people unknowingly got lured into the high risk arena, with here have this credit card, and hey, why not move up to this house you can’t afford so that you can endenture yourself unto me for life. It turned into a huge ponzi scheme that was growing solely on the basis of luring in more suckers. All ponzi schemes have to fail but there’s a finite supply of suckers. So, here’re all these regular mom and pop types who’re getting foreclosed on their houses now. Here is a mess. So, the state steps in and says, ok, we’ll clean this up, but, because you messed up with the old rules, now there will be some new rules.
It’s kind of the same deal with YFZ, I think. I don’t see this as the state chomping at the bit to tell people they can’t be buying and selling perpetual motion machines, which only means a whole lot of paper work and bad press for the state. But the YFZ has made a mess that can’t be ignored. Believe me, they tried.
Bottom line, I think, the YFZ and only the YFZ is responsible for the mess they engineered. Don’t go blaming the referee.
Where it gets tricky is where people were coerced into the contract or incorporated into it unknowingly or against their will. Then, sometimes the state is obliged to interfere. That’s how I see the role of the state in cases like this. Ideally, the state are really more referees than managers or dictators of the economy.
Kind of similar to the meltdown of the subprime market, which was a kind of the wild west of risk taking. I think you need a wild west in your economy. You need both a stade conservative banking system with a safety net and you also need a place where people can take big risks but without a safety net. The problem was, too many people unknowingly got lured into the high risk arena, with here have this credit card, and hey, why not move up to this house you can’t afford so that you can endenture yourself unto me for life. It turned into a huge ponzi scheme that was growing solely on the basis of luring in more suckers. All ponzi schemes have to fail but there’s a finite supply of suckers. So, here’re all these regular mom and pop types who’re getting foreclosed on their houses now. Here is a mess. So, the state steps in and says, ok, we’ll clean this up, but, because you messed up with the old rules, now there will be some new rules.
It’s kind of the same deal with YFZ, I think. I don’t see this as the state chomping at the bit to tell people they can’t be buying and selling perpetual motion machines, which only means a whole lot of paper work and bad press for the state. But the YFZ has made a mess that can’t be ignored. Believe me, they tried.
Bottom line, I think, the YFZ and only the YFZ is responsible for the mess they engineered. Don’t go blaming the referee.
| QUOTE (chaster @ May 6 2008, 12:27 PM) |
| Bottom line, I think, the YFZ and only the YFZ is responsible for the mess they engineered. Don’t go blaming the referee. |
But this is a case where the referee was on the sidelines, flirting with the cheerleaders while the players are killing each other. Suddenly the ref wakes up and throws everyone out of the game?
I've been saying all along that these cults have been ignored. Whatever the reason, the refs weren't doing their job. Whether on purpose or neglect, the refs were not paying attention. So if there are going to be rules, those in charge of the rules need to be able to monitor them. To say, "oh, you've living with more then one wife? Sorry, I don't know how to ref that sort of game so you on you own. And when you have gotten yourself in a mess, I'll come in make new rules.
That's all I've been asking for, "new rules." If the ref can't ref a game because the players are doing it a little different, then the ref needs to have a just cause to shut down the game or modify the rules.
All along the refs have been looking for a reason to shutdown the game and they hope they have the evidence they need. They won't find it. And in the end, the refs will be forced to make rules that the FLDS types can live with, so they know what is a foul, personal foul, or a goal.
Frankly, if all that comes out of this is that CPS will monitor the underage marriage thing, then I will be happy, but I don't think that CPS will be happy with that. CPS will become the pawn of higher government types that just want to see this game end.