I saw Flora on Nancy Grace last night. Oh my God, the lies left me with my mouth hanging open.
The one lawyer that was trying to point out the "facts" in the situation was told to "stop", "be quiet" and then they cut to commerical.
"Do you think that two lawyers from NY know more about the situation then this woman who lived it?" Nancy Grace is nasty and she was at her best last night.
Then Carolyn Jessop says, "if the raid of 53 had succeeded, my life would be different." ::shudder:: The idea makes me want to weep. I've tried to have some respect for her story, but that she would wish that fate on the rest of us. . . . whatever respect I might have had for her just disappeared.
Full Version: Flora, Nancy Grace, and the Lies
| QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ May 23 2008, 06:14 AM) |
| I saw Flora on Nancy Grace last night. Oh my God, the lies left me with my mouth hanging open. The one lawyer that was trying to point out the "facts" in the situation was told to "stop", "be quiet" and then they cut to commerical. "Do you think that two lawyers from NY know more about the situation then this woman who lived it?" Nancy Grace is nasty and she was at her best last night. Then Carolyn Jessop says, "if the raid of 53 had succeeded, my life would be different." ::shudder:: The idea makes me want to weep. I've tried to have some respect for her story, but that she would wish that fate on the rest of us. . . . whatever respect I might have had for her just disappeared. |
What specifically did they say that was a lie? I know Flora quite well. My impression is she's quite blunt and she's quite honest. She sounds outrageous because there are such outrageous things going on out there. A lier is someone who tells untruths. It's not someone who says what you don't want to hear. If you're going to call someone a lier, back it up. What did she say that was not the truth?
Oh, the lawyer was trying to tell the truth? Wow, now there's something you don't see every day.
If the raid of 53' had succeeded in breaking up the lawlessness and the isolation then the situation we have today would have never come to pass, so what they said was true. Whether you approve of the idea or not doesn't mean it's untrue.
Now, LC, before you hit the respond key, reflect on your and mine discourse on this forum so far. If you want to discuss the truth or falsity or unpleasantness of Nancy Grace and Flora, we can discuss this. I confess up front that I didn't see it. But if you insult me personally I am going to hit you back. This is something you have missed in the past. If I say something about the FLDS or the Mormons or whatever, it is not directed at you personally. You can respond in kind but if you flip a Mormon on me and attack the messenger, we're off and running. I know you have a lifetime of persecution complex behind you, but you have left that. You don't have to attack everyone who doesn't like your religion.
I don’t attack people that don’t like my religion . . . . and it isn’t my religion. Its my heritage/culture from which I came.
Flora is blunt and I’ve tried a dozen times to see her side of the story. But here is a list of the lies that I can remember.
1. As soon as a girl reaches puberty, she is married.
2. When a baby is 1 year old, it is removed from its nature parent and given to another to raise. The children don’t know who their natural parents are.
3. Girls cannot get out of the communities because the gates are locked and girls and women don’t have keys. (I noted that she was speaking of Texas, but also hinted that it was the same in CC.)
4. Girls are not allowed to talk to people outside of the community and therefore cannot contact help, (most carry cell phones, which CPS had to take away.)
5. This is a group of pedophiles that are just want to have sex with their own daughters.
There were other lies, half-truths, and misleading information. I say the lawyer was trying to say the facts, because he was trying to say what I have been reading in the news the past few days. They have 5 girls that were actually underage and pregnant. The fact is, though the documents taken from the bishops vault does show that polygamy happens, and that some men as old 53 are married to girls as young as 17, it doesn’t support the theory that these people marry girls at puberty.
I was pretty young when the whole Flora thing went down. My best friend was neighbor to her (short time) husband, if I recall correctly. From what I heard, she busted the place up pretty good. There are always two sides of a story and Flora isn't always the victim, though she likes to think so.
Nancy Grace is unpleasant, even nasty. Flora is suffering from some illusion that we are all bad guys out to destroy her and her “babies.” Many of us in the community are just as upset as she is about some of things that happen. But I’ve said it before, we don’t have access to the court system like normal American citizens do, and frankly, its starting to piss me off.
Flora wants to be upset that these kids are going back their parents!!! Their OWN parents for Christ sake!! I don’t now what kind of childhood that Flora grew up in, but many of us don’t think that ours were that bad. In fact, we are happy to have it. To have someone out painting pictures of horror about us is upsetting.
Nancy Grace didn’t want to hear anything about the injustice of what had happened to the FLDS. She just wanted to paint us as monsters and tried to silence anyone who said different.
And don’t whip this, “I don’t want to hear things that are unpleasant” crap on me. When I read that 31 of 56 girls were pregnant, I was upset, even enraged. It was VERY unpleasant to consider. When the number turned out to be 5-in-56, it says to me that someone is trying to paint some lies.
If you want to want to define a liar as someone that tells untruths, then you have so defined Flora. Me, I think the term liar is a little strong. I rather define someone from whence they speak, rather then what actually comes out of their mouths. I think Flora perhaps is coming for a place of pain. But she is just spreading her pain. I’m not really sure I’ve heard one success story about anyone that she has helped.
And about me trying to insult you. Do I do that? You can hit me if you want. You’ve done it before, but I can take it. I’ve made an effort to place a mirror in your comments to show a reflection that you are not as holy and righteous as you try to sound. As far as I know, if I’ve insulted you, I merely used your words.
About the ’53 raid. I’ll say again, the GOVERNMENT decided that their only option was to isolate the people. We have always gone into the “world” to work. We are an industrial people, we work hard, and we have isolated ourselves to the degree we felt necessary to protect our faith.
It is people like Flora that continue to promote the isolation. She wants to come in and “force us” to do things her way. Is she any different then those that tried to force her? Many of us have made huge efforts to make contact and establish a rapport with people on the outside. What we meet is the bitterness passed on by Flora and her type. There are hundreds of people that have left the community that didn’t feel the need to spread such pain. I’m not saying that a few isolated events didn’t happen. Jack Cook was know for incest, people in the community had he arrested and charged files against him. But it took the community leaders to make the decision, because the people themselves were afraid of the law.
Flora has DONE NOTHING to improve the relationship between this people and the outside. In fact, she has made it harder for those that try to reach out, or get out. She makes it harder for me to be out here, because her words make me look like a victim or a monster. The image is reflected in the way you treat me, call me names, call me afraid of the truth, etc. When I meet people now, more and more, I get the horrified response when the find out where I am from.
I have every reason to hate Flora, because her words make my existence and life on the outside harder. The more people look at me like, “oh, poor John” the more I want to say “up yours” and go back to people that understand me for the asshole that I am.
Again, I don’t care so much about the words, or even the lies, as I do about the intent to paint us as monsters or victims, depending upon where we stand. Quite frankly, Flora's mother and her sisters scared me growing up. I didn’t now Flora so well, but some of her younger sisters could put the fear of God in you. You pissed them off a little and they’d attack you physically, or just verbally rip your head off. I just avoided them the best I could when I was young. I made friends with a couple later, as I could better appreciate their outspokenness, but even though most have left the cult, their lives aren’t very happy
Again, Flora is NOT helping.
Flora is blunt and I’ve tried a dozen times to see her side of the story. But here is a list of the lies that I can remember.
1. As soon as a girl reaches puberty, she is married.
2. When a baby is 1 year old, it is removed from its nature parent and given to another to raise. The children don’t know who their natural parents are.
3. Girls cannot get out of the communities because the gates are locked and girls and women don’t have keys. (I noted that she was speaking of Texas, but also hinted that it was the same in CC.)
4. Girls are not allowed to talk to people outside of the community and therefore cannot contact help, (most carry cell phones, which CPS had to take away.)
5. This is a group of pedophiles that are just want to have sex with their own daughters.
There were other lies, half-truths, and misleading information. I say the lawyer was trying to say the facts, because he was trying to say what I have been reading in the news the past few days. They have 5 girls that were actually underage and pregnant. The fact is, though the documents taken from the bishops vault does show that polygamy happens, and that some men as old 53 are married to girls as young as 17, it doesn’t support the theory that these people marry girls at puberty.
I was pretty young when the whole Flora thing went down. My best friend was neighbor to her (short time) husband, if I recall correctly. From what I heard, she busted the place up pretty good. There are always two sides of a story and Flora isn't always the victim, though she likes to think so.
Nancy Grace is unpleasant, even nasty. Flora is suffering from some illusion that we are all bad guys out to destroy her and her “babies.” Many of us in the community are just as upset as she is about some of things that happen. But I’ve said it before, we don’t have access to the court system like normal American citizens do, and frankly, its starting to piss me off.
Flora wants to be upset that these kids are going back their parents!!! Their OWN parents for Christ sake!! I don’t now what kind of childhood that Flora grew up in, but many of us don’t think that ours were that bad. In fact, we are happy to have it. To have someone out painting pictures of horror about us is upsetting.
Nancy Grace didn’t want to hear anything about the injustice of what had happened to the FLDS. She just wanted to paint us as monsters and tried to silence anyone who said different.
And don’t whip this, “I don’t want to hear things that are unpleasant” crap on me. When I read that 31 of 56 girls were pregnant, I was upset, even enraged. It was VERY unpleasant to consider. When the number turned out to be 5-in-56, it says to me that someone is trying to paint some lies.
If you want to want to define a liar as someone that tells untruths, then you have so defined Flora. Me, I think the term liar is a little strong. I rather define someone from whence they speak, rather then what actually comes out of their mouths. I think Flora perhaps is coming for a place of pain. But she is just spreading her pain. I’m not really sure I’ve heard one success story about anyone that she has helped.
And about me trying to insult you. Do I do that? You can hit me if you want. You’ve done it before, but I can take it. I’ve made an effort to place a mirror in your comments to show a reflection that you are not as holy and righteous as you try to sound. As far as I know, if I’ve insulted you, I merely used your words.
About the ’53 raid. I’ll say again, the GOVERNMENT decided that their only option was to isolate the people. We have always gone into the “world” to work. We are an industrial people, we work hard, and we have isolated ourselves to the degree we felt necessary to protect our faith.
It is people like Flora that continue to promote the isolation. She wants to come in and “force us” to do things her way. Is she any different then those that tried to force her? Many of us have made huge efforts to make contact and establish a rapport with people on the outside. What we meet is the bitterness passed on by Flora and her type. There are hundreds of people that have left the community that didn’t feel the need to spread such pain. I’m not saying that a few isolated events didn’t happen. Jack Cook was know for incest, people in the community had he arrested and charged files against him. But it took the community leaders to make the decision, because the people themselves were afraid of the law.
Flora has DONE NOTHING to improve the relationship between this people and the outside. In fact, she has made it harder for those that try to reach out, or get out. She makes it harder for me to be out here, because her words make me look like a victim or a monster. The image is reflected in the way you treat me, call me names, call me afraid of the truth, etc. When I meet people now, more and more, I get the horrified response when the find out where I am from.
I have every reason to hate Flora, because her words make my existence and life on the outside harder. The more people look at me like, “oh, poor John” the more I want to say “up yours” and go back to people that understand me for the asshole that I am.
Again, I don’t care so much about the words, or even the lies, as I do about the intent to paint us as monsters or victims, depending upon where we stand. Quite frankly, Flora's mother and her sisters scared me growing up. I didn’t now Flora so well, but some of her younger sisters could put the fear of God in you. You pissed them off a little and they’d attack you physically, or just verbally rip your head off. I just avoided them the best I could when I was young. I made friends with a couple later, as I could better appreciate their outspokenness, but even though most have left the cult, their lives aren’t very happy
Again, Flora is NOT helping.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ May 23 2008, 07:08 AM) |
| What specifically did they say that was a lie? I know Flora quite well. My impression is she's quite blunt and she's quite honest. She sounds outrageous because there are such outrageous things going on out there. A lier is someone who tells untruths. It's not someone who says what you don't want to hear. If you're going to call someone a lier, back it up. What did she say that was not the truth? |
This is running a big risk but under the circumstances it might be worth it for the illumination, but I think it would be interesting to see some things she has said that were the truth. I think you'd be as hard pressed as she has been to come up with very many with anything but the echo for validation.
Time after time, until she has all but destroyed her own credibility, especially with LE and CPS and the "authorities" she is so vociferous about criticizing for their inactivity, her stories have been disproved. It is only the media people and bigots like Nancy Disgrace who will even still give her the audience.
The fallacy in your argument is called proving a negative; the problem is that nothing is ever good enough proof for that kind of logic. The burden of proof is on whoever makes the allegations, unless you subscribe as CPS and Nancy Disgrace et al do to the guilty until proven innocent theory.
Well this time it's flora's turn to be guilty until proven innocent. When didn't she lie? .. and back it up remember, thats what this is about.
1. As soon as a girl reaches puberty, she is married.
2. When a baby is 1 year old, it is removed from its nature parent and given to another to raise. The children don’t know who their natural parents are.
3. Girls cannot get out of the communities because the gates are locked and girls and women don’t have keys. (I noted that she was speaking of Texas, but also hinted that it was the same in CC.)
4. Girls are not allowed to talk to people outside of the community and therefore cannot contact help, (most carry cell phones, which CPS had to take away.)
5. This is a group of pedophiles that are just want to have sex with their own daughters.
Sure there are exceptions to the above, but that's not quite the same thing as saying they're lies.
Instead of saying the above are lies, what'd be more informative is how close an approximation to the truth are they?
0% ?
50% ?
90% ?
2. When a baby is 1 year old, it is removed from its nature parent and given to another to raise. The children don’t know who their natural parents are.
3. Girls cannot get out of the communities because the gates are locked and girls and women don’t have keys. (I noted that she was speaking of Texas, but also hinted that it was the same in CC.)
4. Girls are not allowed to talk to people outside of the community and therefore cannot contact help, (most carry cell phones, which CPS had to take away.)
5. This is a group of pedophiles that are just want to have sex with their own daughters.
Sure there are exceptions to the above, but that's not quite the same thing as saying they're lies.
Instead of saying the above are lies, what'd be more informative is how close an approximation to the truth are they?
0% ?
50% ?
90% ?
Chaster, I haven't done a study to put any real validity to my words, but as I see it.
Lie #1 = 5% true, 95% lie. Some girls were married young. More so in the past pre 70's) then now. The CP group flat refuses to marry couples if one is younger then 18 now. I'd heard rumor about the young age thing and it upset me. But the evidence seems to be showing that Warren didn't get as married as I had feared. But for the most part, pligs are trying to obey the age limit of marriage. I bet that you would find fewer pregnant teenagers in CC and any other American community. Maybe not, but there aren't any real numbers to prove anything yet.
Lie #2 = Not sure, but maybe 1-5% true, 95-99% lie. Up until Warren, I'd never heard of this, except that some people allowed their children to called Bro Johnson's kids. I don't think that those children actually lived with Bro Johnson, but they call him 'dad.' I think about 10 kids did that. Bro Johnson didn't have very many kids of his own. Warren was rumored to split up children from some families, though I've heard that much of that was mostly rumor. I think the closer truth is that some mothers took their younger children and went to Texas. I don't think the mothers actually gave up their young children, (though I'm open to proof otherwise.) Rumor has it that some of the older children might have been left in CC with fathers that were "repenting from afar, etc."
Lie #3 = For CC 0% true, 100% lie, for Texas, not sure about the key situation. I don't think Flora is either. But as for CC, people came and went at will. Sometimes, getting a set of wheels was a problem, but not the road out of town.
Lie #4 = 5% true, 95% lie. When I was young, CC got into the media a couple of time and reports began showing up in town and talking to the kids, asking leading questions, etc. We were warned that they would use information in a way to harm us. Most of what I've seen since leaving validate that thought. But we were never "forbidden" to talk to people. I was always taught that it was my responsibility to put down evil, do what was right, and never was any method forbidden to me or any of my sibling, with the exception that we were not to criticize the brethren.
Lie #5 = 0.01% true, 99.99% lie. I know abuse happened. I know that some fathers tried to cover it up. But as a group, it was never accepted as "allowable." My brother was accused of molesting his daughters. . . . and CPS came and took the children, locked him up, etc. I'm not sure what happened, as it was about the same time I left town, but he had his day in court and I think all the charges were dropped. I don't excuser abusers, though I am upset at government not doing more to protect against it. Raiding the whole town and threatening to break up the families pretty much had everyone believing that they would rather up with the abuse. However, they fought the abuse as well as they could. I say it is a lie because we DON'T WANT to abuse anyone. Or need to be isolated is because we feel hated, not because people are looking for a screen to hide their child abuse. If abuse is known to take place, it is usually dealt with, with the ability of the community. I have brothers that have been ordered to take anger management courses, etc. Part of the problem is that a wife might be dealing with an angry husband, but she cannot call the law for help because if she does, the whole damn town would be raided. So we are not trying to isolate ourselves so that we can commit crimes, however, because of the isolation, crimes tend to go unaddressed. But that is just as much due to the work of Flora and others as anything else.
Lie #1 = 5% true, 95% lie. Some girls were married young. More so in the past pre 70's) then now. The CP group flat refuses to marry couples if one is younger then 18 now. I'd heard rumor about the young age thing and it upset me. But the evidence seems to be showing that Warren didn't get as married as I had feared. But for the most part, pligs are trying to obey the age limit of marriage. I bet that you would find fewer pregnant teenagers in CC and any other American community. Maybe not, but there aren't any real numbers to prove anything yet.
Lie #2 = Not sure, but maybe 1-5% true, 95-99% lie. Up until Warren, I'd never heard of this, except that some people allowed their children to called Bro Johnson's kids. I don't think that those children actually lived with Bro Johnson, but they call him 'dad.' I think about 10 kids did that. Bro Johnson didn't have very many kids of his own. Warren was rumored to split up children from some families, though I've heard that much of that was mostly rumor. I think the closer truth is that some mothers took their younger children and went to Texas. I don't think the mothers actually gave up their young children, (though I'm open to proof otherwise.) Rumor has it that some of the older children might have been left in CC with fathers that were "repenting from afar, etc."
Lie #3 = For CC 0% true, 100% lie, for Texas, not sure about the key situation. I don't think Flora is either. But as for CC, people came and went at will. Sometimes, getting a set of wheels was a problem, but not the road out of town.
Lie #4 = 5% true, 95% lie. When I was young, CC got into the media a couple of time and reports began showing up in town and talking to the kids, asking leading questions, etc. We were warned that they would use information in a way to harm us. Most of what I've seen since leaving validate that thought. But we were never "forbidden" to talk to people. I was always taught that it was my responsibility to put down evil, do what was right, and never was any method forbidden to me or any of my sibling, with the exception that we were not to criticize the brethren.
Lie #5 = 0.01% true, 99.99% lie. I know abuse happened. I know that some fathers tried to cover it up. But as a group, it was never accepted as "allowable." My brother was accused of molesting his daughters. . . . and CPS came and took the children, locked him up, etc. I'm not sure what happened, as it was about the same time I left town, but he had his day in court and I think all the charges were dropped. I don't excuser abusers, though I am upset at government not doing more to protect against it. Raiding the whole town and threatening to break up the families pretty much had everyone believing that they would rather up with the abuse. However, they fought the abuse as well as they could. I say it is a lie because we DON'T WANT to abuse anyone. Or need to be isolated is because we feel hated, not because people are looking for a screen to hide their child abuse. If abuse is known to take place, it is usually dealt with, with the ability of the community. I have brothers that have been ordered to take anger management courses, etc. Part of the problem is that a wife might be dealing with an angry husband, but she cannot call the law for help because if she does, the whole damn town would be raided. So we are not trying to isolate ourselves so that we can commit crimes, however, because of the isolation, crimes tend to go unaddressed. But that is just as much due to the work of Flora and others as anything else.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ May 23 2008, 09:09 AM) |
| Well this time it's flora's turn to be guilty until proven innocent. When didn't she lie? .. and back it up remember, thats what this is about. |
I agree, except I don't think she will take the time. . . . not that I would believe anything she said. I'm convinced that SHE THINKS THAT she is doing the right thing, but I've seen that attitude in the 8000 other people that live that town she came from.
| QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ May 23 2008, 06:09 PM) |
| Chaster, I haven't done a study to put any real validity to my words, but as I see it. Lie #1 = 5% true, 95% lie. Some girls were married young. More so in the past pre 70's) then now. The CP group flat refuses to marry couples if one is younger then 18 now. I'd heard rumor about the young age thing and it upset me. But the evidence seems to be showing that Warren didn't get as married as I had feared. But for the most part, pligs are trying to obey the age limit of marriage. I bet that you would find fewer pregnant teenagers in CC and any other American community. Maybe not, but there aren't any real numbers to prove anything yet. Lie #2 = Not sure, but maybe 1-5% true, 95-99% lie. Up until Warren, I'd never heard of this, except that some people allowed their children to called Bro Johnson's kids. I don't think that those children actually lived with Bro Johnson, but they call him 'dad.' I think about 10 kids did that. Bro Johnson didn't have very many kids of his own. Warren was rumored to split up children from some families, though I've heard that much of that was mostly rumor. I think the closer truth is that some mothers took their younger children and went to Texas. I don't think the mothers actually gave up their young children, (though I'm open to proof otherwise.) Rumor has it that some of the older children might have been left in CC with fathers that were "repenting from afar, etc." Lie #3 = For CC 0% true, 100% lie, for Texas, not sure about the key situation. I don't think Flora is either. But as for CC, people came and went at will. Sometimes, getting a set of wheels was a problem, but not the road out of town. Lie #4 = 5% true, 95% lie. When I was young, CC got into the media a couple of time and reports began showing up in town and talking to the kids, asking leading questions, etc. We were warned that they would use information in a way to harm us. Most of what I've seen since leaving validate that thought. But we were never "forbidden" to talk to people. I was always taught that it was my responsibility to put down evil, do what was right, and never was any method forbidden to me or any of my sibling, with the exception that we were not to criticize the brethren. Lie #5 = 0.01% true, 99.99% lie. I know abuse happened. I know that some fathers tried to cover it up. But as a group, it was never accepted as "allowable." My brother was accused of molesting his daughters. . . . and CPS came and took the children, locked him up, etc. I'm not sure what happened, as it was about the same time I left town, but he had his day in court and I think all the charges were dropped. I don't excuser abusers, though I am upset at government not doing more to protect against it. Raiding the whole town and threatening to break up the families pretty much had everyone believing that they would rather up with the abuse. However, they fought the abuse as well as they could. I say it is a lie because we DON'T WANT to abuse anyone. Or need to be isolated is because we feel hated, not because people are looking for a screen to hide their child abuse. If abuse is known to take place, it is usually dealt with, with the ability of the community. I have brothers that have been ordered to take anger management courses, etc. Part of the problem is that a wife might be dealing with an angry husband, but she cannot call the law for help because if she does, the whole damn town would be raided. So we are not trying to isolate ourselves so that we can commit crimes, however, because of the isolation, crimes tend to go unaddressed. But that is just as much due to the work of Flora and others as anything else. |
Gosh. I wonder how so many of those underage girls at YFZ got pregnant. Whole lot of immaculate conception going on.
Course they're not minors. Or are they? Seems like the story changes according to convenience.
Having come up Mormon, myself, my perception is that the term "lies" often tends to mean being in conflict with a truth that we just make up whole cloth as we go along. Seeing as we're in charge of truth, well naturally anything that comes into conflict with that is what? Lies of course.
| QUOTE (chaster @ May 25 2008, 12:57 PM) |
| Gosh. I wonder how so many of those underage girls at YFZ got pregnant. Whole lot of immaculate conception going on. Course they're not minors. Or are they? Seems like the story changes according to convenience. Having come up Mormon, myself, my perception is that the term "lies" often tends to mean being in conflict with a truth that we just make up whole cloth as we go along. Seeing as we're in charge of truth, well naturally anything that comes into conflict with that is what? Lies of course. |
I'm a little confused about "so many" and "underage" here. We started with 31 underage pregnancies, ended up with 5. And underage, meant underage 18, but really underage is 17, which can be even younger with a parent's permission.
Maybe if they had gone in and take 5 underage girls, it would be more shocking then 5 in 460 children. But that is almost 1-in-100. That really isn't that many.
I helped raise my step-daughter. Her entire age group was sexually active by 15 and it wasn't because we gave blessing to it. One of her friend stayed virgin until 17, but we'd heard the stories of how that meant that she did EVERYTHING EXCEPT intercourse, or at least the type of intercourse that would end her virginity. But I've heard many stories about girls started as young as 13 and 14. Those parents aren't in jail.
I've never approved of young sex, marriage, or dating, but I'm a little shocked at how people keep talking like they've never heard of girls have sex at 14, 15, & 16. They need to open their eyes. I've only lived in a half-a-dozen cities in my life, but I know from the kids living there that it's pretty much the same where ever you go. Mormon girls are the hardest to get into bed, (one guy told me) but he made it a quest the get the bishop's 15 year old daughter.
Something about all of this reminds me of some of the boys coming back from Vietnam. They would send these boys out to get shot at and killed, but most were to young to drink or smoke.
We turn a blind eye to teens having sex, where the boy is totally incapable of supporting a family, because we can get abortion. Or we can put the child up for adoption. But introduce a situation where the man might actually be able to support the child and there is an outcry.
Lies, Lies, and More Lies
Flora was on Nancy Disgrace (thanks sayitanitso). Again, lies, lies, and more lies. Nancy was off, someone else was hosting the show. Flora was getting a little desperate. The host finally had to call her down.
But to spell it out.
Flora said that
1. We set in front of a child and continually slap it’s mouth until it quits crying. I’ve watched hundreds of children treated, tended, corrected, and disciplined and I’ve never-ever heard of anything like that.
2. We hold children’s head under the tap to make their stop crying. I’d only heard that subject brought up once in my life and my mothers were speaking of a situation they heard about and were outraged. Apparently, according to Carolyn, Merrill Jessop did this sort of thing. This is outrageous, but in no way should be put upon us as a “this is how pligs quiet their babies.
3. We have an entire grave yard filled with babies because of our abusiveness. (The host had to tell Flora that this was a little over the top and no one had brought forth any kind of evidence of this nature.) There is a baby grave yard. I’m not exactly sure what children are buried there. No everyone agreed with the reason, but I think it had something to do with children were innocent didn’t need to be buried with the “sinner adults.” Because the community decided to bury the young in a different location, the numbers stand out strong. In a town where there are thousands of children, accidents happen. But the majority of the children there died at birth. Birth-defects are higher in CC due to a lack of variety in the gene-pool. Children are considered the greatest blessing (according to religion) and therefore not lost without a fight. That Flora suggested that we killed our children with our “brutality” is crazy. My brothers were pretty brutal on me, but I never had a broken bone from any of it. And it was never as baby, but when I was got a little older, about 12-16. But again, nothing to do with religion, or teaching, just bigger brothers trying to be bigger.
Flora was on Nancy Disgrace (thanks sayitanitso). Again, lies, lies, and more lies. Nancy was off, someone else was hosting the show. Flora was getting a little desperate. The host finally had to call her down.
But to spell it out.
Flora said that
1. We set in front of a child and continually slap it’s mouth until it quits crying. I’ve watched hundreds of children treated, tended, corrected, and disciplined and I’ve never-ever heard of anything like that.
2. We hold children’s head under the tap to make their stop crying. I’d only heard that subject brought up once in my life and my mothers were speaking of a situation they heard about and were outraged. Apparently, according to Carolyn, Merrill Jessop did this sort of thing. This is outrageous, but in no way should be put upon us as a “this is how pligs quiet their babies.
3. We have an entire grave yard filled with babies because of our abusiveness. (The host had to tell Flora that this was a little over the top and no one had brought forth any kind of evidence of this nature.) There is a baby grave yard. I’m not exactly sure what children are buried there. No everyone agreed with the reason, but I think it had something to do with children were innocent didn’t need to be buried with the “sinner adults.” Because the community decided to bury the young in a different location, the numbers stand out strong. In a town where there are thousands of children, accidents happen. But the majority of the children there died at birth. Birth-defects are higher in CC due to a lack of variety in the gene-pool. Children are considered the greatest blessing (according to religion) and therefore not lost without a fight. That Flora suggested that we killed our children with our “brutality” is crazy. My brothers were pretty brutal on me, but I never had a broken bone from any of it. And it was never as baby, but when I was got a little older, about 12-16. But again, nothing to do with religion, or teaching, just bigger brothers trying to be bigger.
| QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ May 27 2008, 11:51 AM) |
| Lies, Lies, and More Lies Flora was on Nancy Disgrace (thanks sayitanitso). Again, lies, lies, and more lies. Nancy was off, someone else was hosting the show. Flora was getting a little desperate. The host finally had to call her down. But to spell it out. Flora said that 1. We set in front of a child and continually slap it’s mouth until it quits crying. I’ve watched hundreds of children treated, tended, corrected, and disciplined and I’ve never-ever heard of anything like that. 2. We hold children’s head under the tap to make their stop crying. I’d only heard that subject brought up once in my life and my mothers were speaking of a situation they heard about and were outraged. Apparently, according to Carolyn, Merrill Jessop did this sort of thing. This is outrageous, but in no way should be put upon us as a “this is how pligs quiet their babies. 3. We have an entire grave yard filled with babies because of our abusiveness. (The host had to tell Flora that this was a little over the top and no one had brought forth any kind of evidence of this nature.) There is a baby grave yard. I’m not exactly sure what children are buried there. No everyone agreed with the reason, but I think it had something to do with children were innocent didn’t need to be buried with the “sinner adults.” Because the community decided to bury the young in a different location, the numbers stand out strong. In a town where there are thousands of children, accidents happen. But the majority of the children there died at birth. Birth-defects are higher in CC due to a lack of variety in the gene-pool. Children are considered the greatest blessing (according to religion) and therefore not lost without a fight. That Flora suggested that we killed our children with our “brutality” is crazy. My brothers were pretty brutal on me, but I never had a broken bone from any of it. And it was never as baby, but when I was got a little older, about 12-16. But again, nothing to do with religion, or teaching, just bigger brothers trying to be bigger. |
I can't say on any of this. I'm not part of the group and I've not seen it first hand. I submit that you aren't any more of an expert than me, LC, because you were never actual FLDS and to the extent that you knew what was going on across the street, you left years ago. Under Warren's regime they've been tightening the screws more and more so that even the abuse of a few years ago has been greatly increased. Warren has discounted any role of human love, instead treating family as a priesthood assignment. That tells us a lot about his psychopathic personality defects. But the thing is you don't know any more about this than I do.
That level of abuse is consistent with what you find all any of these cults. As I said before, nothing about the Mormon groups is unique. In any cult you have an abusive leader who isolates his flock and then abuses them to his hearts content. There isn't any limit on the level of abuse so what I say is these things are at least plausible.
As far as the baby cemetery, where I grew up a baby cemetery would be not only unnecessary but also empty. With modern medical practice, losing a baby is quite unusual. I'd say Warren is capable of ordering infanticide. I'd say his followers would do what he tells them. I don't know where that leads us. There have been rumors and things going around for years about the baby cemetery. I just don't know other than that, for an outsider, the existence of enough dead babies to make a separate cemetery seems mighty strange.
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ May 31 2008, 07:46 AM) |
| I can't say on any of this. I'm not part of the group and I've not seen it first hand. I submit that you aren't any more of an expert than me, LC, because you were never actual FLDS and to the extent that you knew what was going on across the street, you left years ago. Under Warren's regime they've been tightening the screws more and more so that even the abuse of a few years ago has been greatly increased. Warren has discounted any role of human love, instead treating family as a priesthood assignment. That tells us a lot about his psychopathic personality defects. But the thing is you don't know any more about this than I do. |
I can say without a doubt those are all lies. They have all been investigated and debunked but that doesn't slow her down.
... and I don't get all this worrying about miscarriages and baby fatalities from people who believe in sterilization and abortion. The implication is that there is some kind of sinister genocide going down.. and nothing could be farther from the truth.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ May 31 2008, 08:47 AM) |
| I can say without a doubt those are all lies. They have all been investigated and debunked but that doesn't slow her down. ... and I don't get all this worrying about miscarriages and baby fatalities from people who believe in sterilization and abortion. The implication is that there is some kind of sinister genocide going down.. and nothing could be farther from the truth. |
Hey Sayit , I've got something I want to ask you if its OK . When I read part of this sentence ;
[/QUOTE]. from people who believe in sterilization and abortion.[QUOTE]
I was wondering who you had in mind . When our little buddy Street says stuff like this he kinda means everybody who aint FLDS . Well to be honest I got the same thought that you figure the FLDS are the only ones who oppose abortion and sterilization .
Now I know you must know thats far from the truth , but at times it just kinda seems different FLDS people get this attitude that its --Us against the world --- sort of talk .
When this attitude comes out its usually followed by a all inclusive statement where it seems the FLDS folks are trying to separate themselves by kinda suggesting the rest of the world is bad because of abortion or any other activities that go against Christian principles .
You don't see it this way do you Sayit ? I know how it sounds but thought I would ask .
| QUOTE (1 yankie @ May 31 2008, 10:25 AM) |
| Hey Sayit , I've got something I want to ask you if its OK . When I read part of this sentence ; . from people who believe in sterilization and abortion. I was wondering who you had in mind . When our little buddy Street says stuff like this he kinda means everybody who aint FLDS . Well to be honest I got the same thought that you figure the FLDS are the only ones who oppose abortion and sterilization . Now I know you must know thats far from the truth , but at times it just kinda seems different FLDS people get this attitude that its --Us against the world --- sort of talk . When this attitude comes out its usually followed by a all inclusive statement where it seems the FLDS folks are trying to separate themselves by kinda suggesting the rest of the world is bad because of abortion or any other activities that go against Christian principles . You don't see it this way do you Sayit ? I know how it sounds but thought I would ask . |
No i'm sure it's not everybody, but in particular the flaming liberals and activists who make these kind of unfounded allegations, or are determined to believe them and keep repeating them, ignorantly, or even in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
The Hildale Cemetery was established a long time ago, (like 50 years or so) because it was complicated to have an infant death in Utah and then have cross the state line to inter them. They would have a family graveside service instead of a community funeral, sometimes even if it was a miscarriage or still born, sids.. accidents, or anything like that.
You won't have a town full of people having a lot of kids and not have a few complications. Even the inbreeding problems are grossly overblown. But there was nothing sinister about it. All this was investigated already becuase of these recent allegations, and it goes nowhere. It;s just more media hyper drama, shock headline stuff.
| QUOTE (sayitaintso @ May 31 2008, 02:02 PM) |
| No i'm sure it's not everybody, but in particular the flaming liberals and activists who make these kind of unfounded allegations, or are determined to believe them and keep repeating them, ignorantly, or even in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. The Hildale Cemetery was established a long time ago, (like 50 years or so) because it was complicated to have an infant death in Utah and then have cross the state line to inter them. They would have a family graveside service instead of a community funeral, sometimes even if it was a miscarriage or still born, sids.. accidents, or anything like that. You won't have a town full of people having a lot of kids and not have a few complications. Even the inbreeding problems are grossly overblown. But there was nothing sinister about it. All this was investigated already becuase of these recent allegations, and it goes nowhere. It;s just more media hyper drama, shock headline stuff. |
Fair enough for me , glad I asked .
| QUOTE (Cactus Jim @ May 31 2008, 07:46 AM) |
| I can't say on any of this. I'm not part of the group and I've not seen it first hand. |
You know Jim, I think this pretty much says it all for me.
According to you:
Q: How can you tell if a plig is lying?
A: If their mouth is open.
Your definition of abuse: Polygamy. Therefore all of those childs are being abused.
Flora can go onto national TV, and show after show, tell her story and everyone eats it up. But when people ACTUALLY get involved, they usually change their minds. There are some cases of abuse, yes there are. They are sad and tragic, but nothing so tragic as the hate you and Flora's org spreads for those that seek intrigration in the world.
Well, the kids are back, (or most of them.) Thanks for the use of your board to vent.
When this whole started, on a scale of 1-10, my respect for Flora was about 3. Now back to zero. Instead of seeing where the greater abuse was coming from, she jumped on the situation, knowing the trigger was a lie and promoted the effort to seperate those children from their parents? FROM THEIR PARENTS!!!
I've known of nasty folks in my life. . . . but Flora is currently top of my list.
No need to ban me, I'm done here.
QUOTE (Self Proclaimed Greatness @ Jun 4 2008, 11:43 AM)
According to you:
Q: How can you tell if a plig is lying?
A: If their mouth is open.
No. What I said was you can tell when they are lying because their lips are moving. Their mouths being open is probably part of the vacant look they must get from listening to tapes of Warren's endless monotone for hours on end.
| QUOTE |
| Your definition of abuse: Polygamy. Therefore all of those childs are being abused. |
Not quite but very close. It's a backwards and repressive lifestyle that has no place in the 21 century.
| QUOTE |
| No need to ban me, I'm done here. |
OK Bye again.
Be sure and keep that special sense of persecution and outrage you folks specialize in. It's not the fault of your people who can't seem to quite follow the laws the rest of us have to abide by, it's that darn Flora and all them others what persecute and force you to isolate yourselves. Yep, nothin wrong with the God's special people.